Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[PinkLucy]

That’s odd because a check in @Urban Sky ’s wonderful timetable archive for 1996-2005 shows that it was the northbound train that ran at night. The southbound train ran in the daytime.

I only spotchecked a timetable every second year or so, so maybe it did run the way you suggest for a short time, but given the pattern in so many other years I can’t put much faith in your “most people” report.

I can somewhat understand the logic in a morning arrival in Toronto - if the intent is to serve a clientele that is coming to the city for medical and other appointments.

I worked with a province wide agency and have lots of experience with business meetings not starting until the early plane from Timmins got in, and having to end in time for folks to dash to the airport for their late afternoon flight But I doubt this clientele would be eager to spend a night on board and arrive all bleary after a coach ride in the dark. I would expect the most important timing would be to connect with trains to southern ontario, so that the catchment is not just GTA. That argues for the traditional midday departure northwards and late afternoon arrival southwards.

- Paul

We used to take the northbound train out of Union on Sunday night, sleep on the train and head to work when we arrived in the north. It was wonderful. (And yes, one was the Northland and one the Northlander with different liveries, but people didn’t care … we just knew when the trains were there). Heading south we would catch a late morning train to get into Union around 5 or 6 pm as I recall.

When it went to once a day with a different type of train (no compartments, no dining car, no sleepers), passenger use dropped off. Combined with significant improvements to Hwy 11 between North Bay and Toronto, it changed the convenience and use of rail travel from NE Ontario.

I am referring to the 80s and early 90s here.

 

[Bordercollie]

That’s odd because a check in @Urban Sky ’s wonderful timetable archive for 1996-2005 shows that it was the northbound train that ran at night. The southbound train ran in the daytime.

I only spotchecked a timetable every second year or so, so maybe it did run the way you suggest for a short time, but given the pattern in so many other years I can’t put much faith in your “most people” report.

I can somewhat understand the logic in a morning arrival in Toronto - if the intent is to serve a clientele that is coming to the city for medical and other appointments.

I worked with a province wide agency and have lots of experience with business meetings not starting until the early plane from Timmins got in, and having to end in time for folks to dash to the airport for their late afternoon flight But I doubt this clientele would be eager to spend a night on board and arrive all bleary after a coach ride in the dark. I would expect the most important timing would be to connect with trains to southern ontario, so that the catchment is not just GTA. That argues for the traditional midday departure northwards and late afternoon arrival southwards.

- Paul

Business travellers would want to be able to arrive in Toronto for the morning and then be out by night. Leaving North at at like 5am to be in Toronto for 8 would be ideal this way Muskoka customers can get to Toronto for the morning. The train could leave Toronto at 6pm and be back in Northbay for 10pm. I don't know what the travel requirements are north of there.

 

[PinkLucy]

Business travellers would want to be able to arrive in Toronto for the morning and then be out by night. Leaving North at at like 5am to be in Toronto for 8 would be ideal this way Muskoka customers can get to Toronto for the morning. The train could leave Toronto at 6pm and be back in Northbay for 10pm. I don't know what the travel requirements are north of there.

Back in the day I flew for business to Toronto (we were north of North Bay). Early flight in the morning, meetings, fly back north same day.

 

[crs1026]

I took the train to Norh Bay once on business when weather was awful….a memorable ride in the snow, but just too many hours to make this a habit.

I’m not a morning person, but I would rather get up at a ridiculous hour for the airplane than risk making a critical sales pitch or negotiation after riding the train all night. I admire anyone with the kind of stamina to do that.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

That’s odd because a check in @Urban Sky ’s wonderful timetable archive for 1996-2005 shows that it was the northbound train that ran at night. The southbound train ran in the daytime.

I only spotchecked a timetable every second year or so, so maybe it did run the way you suggest for a short time, but given the pattern in so many other years I can’t put much faith in your “most people” report.

I can somewhat understand the logic in a morning arrival in Toronto - if the intent is to serve a clientele that is coming to the city for medical and other appointments. But would that not demand northbound overnight return also ?

I worked with a province wide agency and have lots of experience with business meetings not starting until the early plane from Timmins got in, and having to end in time for folks to dash to the airport for their late afternoon flight But I doubt this clientele would be eager to spend a night on board and arrive all bleary after a coach ride in the dark. I would expect the most important timing for the biggest part of the market would be whatever is best fortravellers with time to spare - thus day and timed to connect with trains to southern ontario, so that the catchment is not just GTA. That argues for day trains on the traditional midday departure northwards and late afternoon arrival southwards.

If the cost of a second trainset is that much of a dealbreaker, the business case for this service is pretty thin.

- Paul

As others stated, this was the 1980s. Go back later in the timetables.

 

[crs1026]

As others stated, this was the 1980s. Go back later in the timetables.

As others have indicated, there was both a day train and a night train in each direction until the Mulroney cuts of 1990.

The single trainset, 24-hour cycle version did not happen until Nov 1997 into 1998. Between 1990 and 1998, the service was a day train in each direction, six days a week, daytime in both directions.

Would you care to do a little research yourself and educate us ?

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

As others have indicated, there was both a day train and a night train in each direction until the Mulroney cuts of 1990.

The single trainset, 24-hour cycle version did not happen until Nov 1997 into 1998. Between 1990 and 1998, the service was a day train in each direction, six days a week, daytime in both directions.

Would you care to do a little research yourself and educate us ?

- Paul

If there were sleeping cars or pods of some kind it would be okay, but not in economy. I wonder what percentage of people would travel from Muskoka to Northbay for business or to visit a hospital?

I think if you could get from Huntsville to Union Station in three hours that would be competitive with driving. On a bad day it could take you more than an hour from King City to Union Station especially to get there for 9am. If it's snowing you could double that time depending on if you took Avenue Rd, the 427 or the DVP, and if anything Yonge Street might be your best bet.

 

[lenaitch]

I wonder what percentage of people would travel from Muskoka to Northbay for business or to visit a hospital?

Business, who knows, but the major health centre for the Muskoka region is RVH in Barrie. Between Huntsville, Bracebridge and to a lesser extent Granvnhurst, Muskoka is it own 'service area in terms of retail and services. For things not available such as Costco, people head south the Orillia or Barrie.

I travel fairly regularly between Simcoe County and North Bay. Winter or summer, traffic noticeably drops off north of Huntsville.

 

[micheal_can]

Business, who knows, but the major health centre for the Muskoka region is RVH in Barrie. Between Huntsville, Bracebridge and to a lesser extent Granvnhurst, Muskoka is it own 'service area in terms of retail and services. For things now available such as Costco, people head south the Orillia or Barrie.

I travel fairly regularly between Simcoe County and North Bay. Winter or summer, traffic noticeably drops off north of Huntsville.

And the train cannot go through Orrillia or Barrie.

 

[DVtoClear]

The Lake Superior route is one of VIA's ridiculous remote service requirements. I don't know (and I don't want to know) how much a Thunder Bay extension would cost.

Of course operating costs would not be zero, and there would be minor capital costs associated with stations, and possibly whatever CP may demand, but an extension would not require more equipment. The existing schedule to and from White River would accommodate the existing train continuing onwards to Thunder Bay and returning.

 

[micheal_can]

Of course operating costs would not be zero, and there would be minor capital costs associated with stations, and possibly whatever CP may demand, but an extension would not require more equipment. The existing schedule to and from White River would accommodate the existing train continuing onwards to Thunder Bay and returning.

If anyone were to bring back a Lake Superior route, One would hope it would go through SSM. Having it be something like Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - SSM -Sudbury - North Bay -Toronto would make sense and catch the most potential ridership.

 

[lenaitch]

The primary reason VIA's Sudbury - White River service exists is because it is part of its mandated remote service. There might be legs of a WPG/TB/SSM/SUD/NB/TO service that would see some ridership, I suspect it would mostly be a tourist train. People don't regularly travel between SSM and TB/WPG and I'm not sure there is a whole lot of travel between SSM and Sudbury. Without literally billions in track upgrades, particularly between Franz and North Bay, it would be quite the milk run. It would be interesting to see a running rights agreement between VIA and at least five different railways.

 

[micheal_can]

The primary reason VIA's Sudbury - White River service exists is because it is part of its mandated remote service. There might be legs of a WPG/TB/SSM/SUD/NB/TO service that would see some ridership, I suspect it would mostly be a tourist train. People don't regularly travel between SSM and TB/WPG and I'm not sure there is a whole lot of travel between SSM and Sudbury. Without literally billions in track upgrades, particularly between Franz and North Bay, it would be quite the milk run. It would be interesting to see a running rights agreement between VIA and at least five different railways.

The traffic east of SSM is busy enough to capture that area. I suspect that between TB and Win it is also busy enough too. I am not suggesting Canadian length trains, but something that has a sleeper and coaches. Maybe 5 cars plus a baggage and a dining car is all that is needed. This service could be run opposite the existing Canadian, such that if the Canadian leaves on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays (Right now their schedules online are not working), then this train could leave on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. While I would like it to be a daily, I would much rather something than nothing.

HCR infrastructure funding expected by fall

The plan calls for a total of $33 million over seven years with an equal contribution from the federal and provincial governments and Genesee &ampamp; Wyoming Canada, the parent company of Huron Central Railway.

www.saultstar.com

HCR infrastructure funding expected by fall​

"The plan calls for a total of $33 million over seven years with an equal contribution from the federal and provincial governments and Genesee & Wyoming Canada, the parent company of Huron Central Railway."

In-direct funding to Watco Rail has ‘eliminated’ union-employees upset | SaultOnline.com

saultonline.com

"“I’m proud of our government’s investment of $1 million in Sault Ste. Marie, with $500,000 each to the Agawa Canyon Tour Train....
...The Agawa Canyon Tour Train and the the Algoma Central Railway was part of the sale to Watco Rail, as it was previously controlled by CN."


Both the ACR and HCR already get government funding in some way. So, if a regular passenger train is going to run and needs to have the line upgraded so that it can run at a reasonable speed, then so be it.

 

[lenaitch]

The traffic east of SSM is busy enough to capture that area. I suspect that between TB and Win it is also busy enough too. I am not suggesting Canadian length trains, but something that has a sleeper and coaches. Maybe 5 cars plus a baggage and a dining car is all that is needed. This service could be run opposite the existing Canadian, such that if the Canadian leaves on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays (Right now their schedules online are not working), then this train could leave on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. While I would like it to be a daily, I would much rather something than nothing.

HCR infrastructure funding expected by fall

The plan calls for a total of $33 million over seven years with an equal contribution from the federal and provincial governments and Genesee &ampamp; Wyoming Canada, the parent company of Huron Central Railway.

www.saultstar.com

HCR infrastructure funding expected by fall​

"The plan calls for a total of $33 million over seven years with an equal contribution from the federal and provincial governments and Genesee & Wyoming Canada, the parent company of Huron Central Railway."

In-direct funding to Watco Rail has ‘eliminated’ union-employees upset | SaultOnline.com

saultonline.com

"“I’m proud of our government’s investment of $1 million in Sault Ste. Marie, with $500,000 each to the Agawa Canyon Tour Train....
...The Agawa Canyon Tour Train and the the Algoma Central Railway was part of the sale to Watco Rail, as it was previously controlled by CN."


Both the ACR and HCR already get government funding in some way. So, if a regular passenger train is going to run and needs to have the line upgraded so that it can run at a reasonable speed, then so be it.

You might be right about the SMM-Sudbury corridor but I have to see numbers to be convinced. I know a few families who live in the Soo and I'd be surprised if they ever had a need to go to Sudbury. A lot of the traffic may well be between the Soo and communities as far east as Elliott Lake and then from the Massey area east to Sudbury. Same with TBay-Wpg, simply because of the distance, although there might be more of a business travel case.

I'm not sure I get the relationship with Canadian. West of Sudbury, the two routes go in completely different directions and serve different catchment areas. Sending the proposed train west out of Sudbury would actually require VIA to abandon part of the mandated remote service route on CP.

Both ACR and HCR might be getting public funds, but I doubt it is sufficient to upgrade the ROW to a point of reasonable passenger speed. I don't know the terms of the funding (if there are any), but I suspect in HCR's case, the goal is more likely to get the track speed for 15 to 40 mph. I don't think the government's can argue 'we give you money so you must support a passenger train'. Something as simple as no w/b to n/b connection in the Soo would need to be installed. In ACR's case, the tour train is just that. It trundles along at sightseeing speed to Agawa, turns around and comes back. It makes no scheduled or flag stops.

A FN group is trying to revive the Soo-Hearst passenger train, which might actually work against a new VIA service (how many passenger trains does one need between Soo and Franz?). A similar argument could be made for the NB-Toronto leg. ONTC is proposing daily service. What would a two or three day alternative service bring to the table? With a milk run like proposed, I can't see the schedule being very consistent.

I honestly think any talk of additional VIA service outside of possibly southern Ontario and maybe Calgary-Edmonton probably belongs on a fantasy page. Don't get me wrong; I'd love to see passenger trains running hither and yon, but there has to be either an economic basis or public subsidies that are willing to continually pour money into it. I get the concept of induced demand, that if a reasonable alternative exists some people might use it, but you need a critical mass of people travelling from A to B in the first place.

 

[Urban Sky]

Of course operating costs would not be zero, and there would be minor capital costs associated with stations, and possibly whatever CP may demand, but an extension would not require more equipment. The existing schedule to and from White River would accommodate the existing train continuing onwards to Thunder Bay and returning.

The last sentence is only true if your only timetabling constraint was that a day has 24 hours.

If we take a quick look at the 1989-04-30 schedule, the scheduled travel time between White River and Thunder Bay was 6h50 westbound and 6h30 eastbound. With Train 185 currently arriving at White River at 17:05 and Train 186 currently departing again at 07:00 the next morning, we are looking at a 23:55 arrival of Train 185 and a 00:30 departure of Train 186: Even if the delay of that train was measured in seconds (like in Japan) and not in hours, your crewing requirements would increase dramatically, as you would need fresh crews in Thunder Bay and Locomotive Engineers can't work for more than 12 consecutive hours:

Even worse, you would now have to pay the crew members for doing nothing productive until either the next departure is scheduled (i.e. 2-3 extra days per arriving crew) or you found a way to get them back home and from there back to Thunder Bay for their next shift. Let's assume that Service Managers continue to be based in Sudbury, that Locomotive Engineers from Capreol continue to operate Sudbury-White River, whereas their colleagues from VIA's existing depot in Hornepayne drive the 100 km to start their shifts in White River. As you can see in below quick-and-dirty calculation, you might end up paying 50% more Service Managers, 2.5 times more Locomotive Engineers and for 4 times as many hotel nights:

Oh yeah, and good luck implementing such a shift plan in a heavily unionized industry like the railways. If Locomotive Engineers fancied being 3-4 consecutive nights away from home, they would have pursued a career as truckers instead...