Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[jys]

If you are going to try to say that the Northlander was "luxurious", I may have to ask what was your definition of luxurious is.

'luxurious'
Better?

 

[dowlingm]

I really don't get the fascination with the Northlander. I took it a few times and it was definitely a nice train ride, but as far as I can tell there's no good reason to operate it when it needs a $400/passenger operating subsidy (likely a lot more if it's being expanded to multiple runs per day). It can't run much faster than bus service even with massive investments, it costs a lot more than bus service, and buses are able to connect Barrie and Orillia to the route (trains aren't because the railway is on the other side of Lake Simcoe).

the Province never showed its work on where the $400 number came from, and there was no consideration of shortening the route to North Bay-Toronto to reduce costs, of outsourcing the route to another rail operator, of adding one or more 905 stops, of Saturday operation, of adjusting the schedule or anything else. Instead there seemed to be a hasty decision to kill it utterly, led by a Sudbury based minister.

 

[dowlingm]

I honestly do think there is a strong desire and market for a return of the Northlander passenger service as an alternative to air and certainly to bus which can be very difficult and uncomfortable for many people. The former run did have some limited success with providing weekend 'cottage' service to Muskoka but was hindered by poor scheduling. There would need to be a late afternoon/early evening northbound on Friday and a similar southbound run on Sunday. One problem with making significant changes to either scheduling or speed is that all of the trackage from Toronto to North Bay is CN, and mainline from Toronto to Washago. I think anything more that alternate-day service, even daily service, is a bit optimistic and there may or may not be the ridership. Any effort to bias the scheduling to accommodate yet more commuter options along the Bala sub. near Toronto would impair the scheduling - it should be an intercity service.

the other market a Friday northbound/Sunday southbound service could have attracted is students at Toronto universities.

I wouldn't be as dogmatic as you on who to serve - that should be a decision municipalities should have a $ay in. I think a stop in Beaverton is obvious, a stop at Bloomington advisable where it permits transfer to Richmond Hill service, and at Langstaff for connections within urban York region.

 

[crs1026]

the Province never showed its work on where the $400 number came from, and there was no consideration of shortening the route to North Bay-Toronto to reduce costs, of outsourcing the route to another rail operator, of adding one or more 905 stops, of Saturday operation, of adjusting the schedule or anything else. Instead there seemed to be a hasty decision to kill it utterly, led by a Sudbury based minister.

The train was just collateral damage during the dismantling of the old ONTC which had become an expensive and anachronistic institution that refused to change and didn't fit how Ontario envisions developing the North. Even those who thought it was a good model couldn't explain the double standard, given that the rest of Northern Ontario (ie the Northwest) didn't get the same economic development and the model could not be affordably reshaped to cover the Northwest.

A train that stops at North Bay is a different proposition. IMHO There is a legitimate case for regional train service radiating from Toronto northwards, to connect places like Sudbury, Parry Sound, North Bay, Huntsville, Gravenhurst to Southern Ontario..... as an alternative to travel using the 400-quality highways. But that is a different market and value proposition than serving "the North". And, that might actually be politically divisive by reminding places like Timmins that they are no longer on the grid.

At the end of the day - any proposal to run passenger trains on the CP and CN lines north/west of Toronto is a fantasy, and won't last long once a price is quoted. It's just a campaign promise, and one with a fairly long term to completion.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

At the end of the day - any proposal to run passenger trains on the CP and CN lines north/west of Toronto is a fantasy, and won't last long once a price is quoted. It's just a campaign promise, and one with a fairly long term to completion.

- Paul

It seems a bit funny to regard the necessary operating funding and capital expense to restore a basic daily rail service over existing track, a good portion of which is in public hands and a portion of the rest improved at public expense to support the extension to Bloomington as "too hard" considering the capital sums being talked about for megaprojects like SWOnt HSR and Missing Link for not-mega numbers of net extra passengers - or giving a CN/CP entity potentially nine figures for the right to build a deck over the Union rail corridor.

 

[amnesiajune]

A train that stops at North Bay is a different proposition. IMHO There is a legitimate case for regional train service radiating from Toronto northwards, to connect places like Sudbury, Parry Sound, North Bay, Huntsville, Gravenhurst to Southern Ontario..... as an alternative to travel using the 400-quality highways. But that is a different market and value proposition than serving "the North". And, that might actually be politically divisive by reminding places like Timmins that they are no longer on the grid.

The big problem is still operating cost. How much subsidy is required to provide bus service, and how much subsidy is required to provide train service? What's the difference, and do the benefits (comfort) and drawbacks (skipping Barrie and Orillia) justify that difference? I reckon that the answer to that second question is an obvious "no".

 

[crs1026]

The big problem is still operating cost. How much subsidy is required to provide bus service, and how much subsidy is required to provide train service? What's the difference, and do the benefits (comfort) and drawbacks (skipping Barrie and Orillia) justify that difference? I reckon that the answer to that second question is an obvious "no".

Actually, a train is not that expensive to operate on an above the rail basis. The curse for the Northlander is that north of Washago, the freight traffic is relatively light. The cost of maintaining the tracks to passenger speed is what is costly, given that there is no need to do so for freight.

South of Washago, the issue is how to interleave passenger service with two-mile-long freights on a single track line. It's true that south of Bloomington, that's now moot in that zone, but from Bloomington to Washago it would take some hefty capital improvements to expedite a Northlander without impacting freight traffic.

If there were money available, I could get behind expropriating all the things that have been built on the old Newmarket Sub ROW north of Allandale, and just putting the tracks back all the way to Washago. That would enable a regional service on top of GO on the Barrie line. I'm sure that with good carpooling lots at all the stations up that line - Huntsville, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge - a two or three train per day service would pull cars off Highway 11. That would be a better use of the money than trying to work with CN to force something onto the Beaverton route.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Actually, a train is not that expensive to operate on an above the rail basis. The curse for the Northlander is that north of Washago, the freight traffic is relatively light. The cost of maintaining the tracks to passenger speed is what is costly, given that there is no need to do so for freight.

South of Washago, the issue is how to interleave passenger service with two-mile-long freights on a single track line. It's true that south of Bloomington, that's now moot in that zone, but from Bloomington to Washago it would take some hefty capital improvements to expedite a Northlander without impacting freight traffic.

If there were money available, I could get behind expropriating all the things that have been built on the old Newmarket Sub ROW north of Allandale, and just putting the tracks back all the way to Washago. That would enable a regional service on top of GO on the Barrie line. I'm sure that with good carpooling lots at all the stations up that line - Huntsville, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge - a two or three train per day service would pull cars off Highway 11. That would be a better use of the money than trying to work with CN to force something onto the Beaverton route.

- Paul

Good points all. Expropriating in Barrie and, to a lesser extent Orillia, would be hugely costly political kryptonite. Barrie has heavily in-filled the former ROW. Orillia and Casino Rama less so but still significant.

 

[TOareaFan]

there is one guy who still gets rail service up there!

https://twitter.com/KevinFrankish/status/937665304171233280

 

[micheal_can]

Good points all. Expropriating in Barrie and, to a lesser extent Orillia, would be hugely costly political kryptonite. Barrie has heavily in-filled the former ROW. Orillia and Casino Rama less so but still significant.

Or they could run it along the Barrie GO line to Barrie. Then follow the line outside of Barrie an then swing it north. You could skirt the east side of Barrie and Orillia.

 

[smallspy]

Or they could run it along the Barrie GO line to Barrie. Then follow the line outside of Barrie an then swing it north. You could skirt the east side of Barrie and Orillia.

That still requires expropriating land on which to build the railway, with the added cost of having to grade it all from scratch.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[micheal_can]

That still requires expropriating land on which to build the railway, with the added cost of having to grade it all from scratch.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

True, but at least you are not trying to put it through the city. The land on the outskirts could be cheaper.

 

[crs1026]

I finally found time to read the Patrick Brown election platform. His fiscal summary promises $5M for an EA for the Northlander in 2018-2019 and an operating subsidy beginning in 2021=2022 of $45 M. This promise is based on a PC Party Policy Resolution #R134 from the last PC Convention. That resolution reads

R134. The Ontario PC Party understands the importance of reliable public transportation among Northern communities and between Northern and Southern Ontario. PC Party policy is to immediately work with Northern rail experts to develop a plan to return a viable passenger rail system to the North (Sponsored by the Northern Affairs PAC).

An EA would be an interesting debate provoker, and might reveal some real facts and data. Not a bad idea if one were interested in this topic.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I finally found time to read the Patrick Brown election platform. His fiscal summary promises $5M for an EA for the Northlander in 2018-2019 and an operating subsidy beginning in 2021=2022 of $45 M. This promise is based on a PC Party Policy Resolution #R134 from the last PC Convention. That resolution reads



An EA would be an interesting debate provoker, and might reveal some real facts and data. Not a bad idea if one were interested in this topic.

- Paul

The problem is, the PCs were the beginning of killing the ONR and the Northlander.

 

[Northern Light]

Or they could run it along the Barrie GO line to Barrie. Then follow the line outside of Barrie an then swing it north. You could skirt the east side of Barrie and Orillia.

I made a similar suggestion before.

An admittedly cursory view suggests that using the Barrie-Collingwood track to access the #400 ROW, follow that to #11, and use the #11 ROW to just north of Orillia before returning the old alignment looks fairly workable.

Obviously not cheap, many overpasses would require replacement, but with a couple of minor pinch points it doesn't look like it would require vast property acquisition.

Of course its a still a less direct route than the original ROW, and there are real questions about cost; but I think they at least merit exploration.