Ontario Liberals and Transit

[TOareaFan]

The average price is 1 million and I think you know out of whack right now.

Yes....but it is out of whack all over the city and, in fact, the GTA....so the effect is city wide....yet some very well served transit nodes with subways still lag, significantly, the average price......so the positive subway effect you brought up a few posts ago is far from the 100% fact that you represented it as.....that is all I am pointing out.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes....but it is out of whack all over the city and, in fact, the GTA....so the effect is city wide....yet some very well served transit nodes with subways still lag, significantly, the average price......so the positive subway effect you brought up a few posts ago is far from the 100% fact that you represented it as.....that is all I am pointing out.

One is, Kennedy, and that will change soon imo.

 

[TOareaFan]

One is, Kennedy, and that will change soon imo.

And I would bet that if you looked at all the numbers, you will find other neighbourhoods with access to subways that have below average housing prices and, similarly, neighbourhoods with no subways that have above average housing prices.

I don't think the correlation is anywhere near as strong/perfect as you seem to think it is.

 

[ehlow]

So LRT can have the same effect as some think subways do?

It should be noted that the highest priced homes in the city of Toronto have no transit at all.

Of course LRT has the same affect as subways do. It's still high order transit that's immune to traffic.

More specifically, central underground Eglinton will be called a subway by everyone but the most hardcore transit nerds. Most people will see underground electric trains and say it's a subway. Many will never go east of Laird to the surface section. The tunnelled section will have higher frequencies, ATO, and turn backs at the ends so service in the tunnel won't be affected by the surface part.

Now, everyone knows it's causing Eglinton West home prices to rise, it's no secret anymore. Every house listing mentions the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. It's clearly making the values increase, as it should.

Many places that were lower-priced that were near the subway are now becoming higher priced at least in part due to the subway. This trend will continue in my opinion, as traffic gets worse and gas prices continue to rise.
Examples: Eglinton West, Danforth east.

Many of the highest-priced neighbourhoods are near the subway. Examples: Lawrence Park (the whole Yonge-Lawrence area), Forest Hill, Rosedale, Summerhill.

To me it's very clear: transit, subways, LRT, raise property values, and yes, people want transit near their homes.

This is not some city where the rich drive and the poor use transit... everyone uses transit. Ask people who make tons of money on Bay St if they drive to work. In general, no.. they live in beautiful homes at Lawrence & Yonge or near St Clair & Yonge or in Forest Hill and take the subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

More specifically, central underground Eglinton will be called a subway by everyone but the most hardcore transit nerds.

The most hardcore of transit nerds will call it a subway, because that's what it is. A subway is an underground electric railway. The ECLRT is the textbook definition of a subway. It could also be called a premetro.

 

[TOareaFan]

Of course LRT has the same affect as subways do. It's still high order transit that's immune to traffic.

Yes I was making a funny at the notion that only a subway will increase values on the BD extension route and the fact that I was then countered by a theory that the Eglinton LRT was doing the same also.

More specifically, central underground Eglinton will be called a subway by everyone but the most hardcore transit nerds. Most people will see underground electric trains and say it's a subway. Many will never go east of Laird to the surface section. The tunnelled section will have higher frequencies, ATO, and turn backs at the ends so service in the tunnel won't be affected by the surface part.

Now, everyone knows it's causing Eglinton West home prices to rise, it's no secret anymore. Every house listing mentions the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. It's clearly making the values increase, as it should.

House prices are rising across the city, GTA and region.....just because people are including the LRT in their listing does not in and of itself indicate that the LRT is contributing to faster appreciation in house prices there than across the city/region as a whole.

Many places that were lower-priced that were near the subway are now becoming higher priced at least in part due to the subway. This trend will continue in my opinion, as traffic gets worse and gas prices continue to rise.
Examples: Eglinton West, Danforth east.

Again, prices are rising across the region.....you would have to show that the appreciation in these areas is/are greater than the average.

Many of the highest-priced neighbourhoods are near the subway. Examples: Lawrence Park (the whole Yonge-Lawrence area), Forest Hill, Rosedale, Summerhill.

To me it's very clear: transit, subways, LRT, raise property values, and yes, people want transit near their homes.

This is not some city where the rich drive and the poor use transit... everyone uses transit. Ask people who make tons of money on Bay St if they drive to work. In general, no.. they live in beautiful homes at Lawrence & Yonge or near St Clair & Yonge or in Forest Hill and take the subway.

You must be hanging out with different people in the bank towers than I do. Those very large parking lots underneath them are full of cars every day and the people driving those cars are coming, in large, from those very neighbourhoods you point out. Without spending too much time, I can think of more than 10 guys I know that are within what I would call a very easy walk to a subway that drive to various towers every day....the only time they take the subway is if they are meeting their wives/girlfriends (seldom both at the same time ) after work and they don't want to have both cars.

I think there is a positive influence on house prices created by transit but it is far more localized. Within a neighbourhood/area the closer you are to the rapid transit line the higher the prices will be but having a subway does not make Keele and Finch prices move towards Yonge and Lawrence prices.

 

[andrewpmk]

You must be hanging out with different people in the bank towers than I do. Those very large parking lots underneath them are full of cars every day and the people driving those cars are coming, in large, from those very neighbourhoods you point out. Without spending too much time, I can think of more than 10 guys I know that are within what I would call a very easy walk to a subway that drive to various towers every day....the only time they take the subway is if they are meeting their wives/girlfriends (seldom both at the same time ) after work and they don't want to have both cars.

I don't understand this attitude - traffic is awful in Toronto, who really wants to drive in rush hour in this city and pay an arm and a leg for parking? I would have thought most people who drive would either be people who work in the suburbs or people who work downtown but live in areas with poor transit service. Then again, Yonge line overcrowding might explain this. Getting stuck in traffic on Avenue/Yonge/Mt. Pleasant/Bayview may be seen as preferable to taking an overcrowded subway. I think that if the downtown relief line got built then people would stop doing this.

Most of the rich neighbourhoods in Toronto proper are within a few km of the subway. The Bridle Path has poor bus service but isn't all that far from bus route 11 or 54, but I'm pretty sure that people of that level of wealth will never use the subway even if the DVP is moving slowly. The ordinary rich (people who live in million dollar houses close to Yonge St) definitely do use the subway, and many people who live in those neighbourhoods are poor people living in apartment buildings who certainly use the subway. The only rich neighbourhood in Toronto that isn't within a few km of the subway is Rouge Hill in Scarborough. On the other hand, there are many rich areas in the 905 like Oakville which are nowhere near a subway stop.

Having good subway service does not guarantee that an area won't be a bad neighbourhood. Having lots of subway lines does not make Harlem or the Bronx rich. I don't think that Kennedy Station or Lawrence Heights or Keele/Finch will ever be desirable neighbourhoods. However the Toronto real estate bubble means that $500K for a house in the poorest neighbourhoods in the city is common.

 

[WislaHD]

I think it is a combination of factors. Avenue/Yonge/Mt. Pleasant and Bayview are congested but not deadlocked, you can still move through them with relative ease as a driver compared to say the arterial roads downtown or the DVP during rush hour. I am sure they much rather be in their car than in the extremely overcrowded rush-hour trains between Eglinton and Queen stations (let alone the ugly buses to take them to the stations in the first place).

If their destination are the downtown towers where they work, their company probably provides them with a free parking spot. Combine these two factors and driving can be time and cost competitive with public transit.


I agree that the DRL reducing congestion on the YUS would probably incentivize more to take transit.

 

[TOareaFan]

Having good subway service does not guarantee that an area won't be a bad neighbourhood. Having lots of subway lines does not make Harlem or the Bronx rich. I don't think that Kennedy Station or Lawrence Heights or Keele/Finch will ever be desirable neighbourhoods. However the Toronto real estate bubble means that $500K for a house in the poorest neighbourhoods in the city is common.

Exactly....but it is the bubble/overall market increase (whatever you want to call it) that has created those prices....and they are still +/- half the average price in the city as a whole....so it is hard for me to attach any significant subway/transit influence on that $500k price.

 

[ehlow]

You must be hanging out with different people in the bank towers than I do. Those very large parking lots underneath them are full of cars every day and the people driving those cars are coming, in large, from those very neighbourhoods you point out. Without spending too much time, I can think of more than 10 guys I know that are within what I would call a very easy walk to a subway that drive to various towers every day....the only time they take the subway is if they are meeting their wives/girlfriends (seldom both at the same time ) after work and they don't want to have both cars.

I think there is a positive influence on house prices created by transit but it is far more localized. Within a neighbourhood/area the closer you are to the rapid transit line the higher the prices will be but having a subway does not make Keele and Finch prices move towards Yonge and Lawrence prices.

Common, those with cars in the parking garages are only a small portion of the tower's employees. Tons arrive by TTC & GO. If you go into the Yonge subway southbound in the morning it's filled with people in suits going to their Bay St jobs.

It makes sense that even those who own say a Tesla or BMW or whatever expensive car would want to take the subway if say they lived at St Clair and worked at King & Bay.. it's easier and faster.

I know in the tech industry, tons of offices are around the King & Spadina area, and even though people in that industry make very good salaries and many own cars, very few drive to work. It's difficult to get parking and traffic makes it extremely slow, and the parking you are able to get is likely really far from the office anyways.

 

[ehlow]

I think it is a combination of factors. Avenue/Yonge/Mt. Pleasant and Bayview are congested but not deadlocked, you can still move through them with relative ease as a driver compared to say the arterial roads downtown or the DVP during rush hour. I am sure they much rather be in their car than in the extremely overcrowded rush-hour trains between Eglinton and Queen stations (let alone the ugly buses to take them to the stations in the first place).

If their destination are the downtown towers where they work, their company probably provides them with a free parking spot. Combine these two factors and driving can be time and cost competitive with public transit.


I agree that the DRL reducing congestion on the YUS would probably incentivize more to take transit.

No way they get a free parking spot. Granted I don't know a huge amount of Bay St workers but one I do know told me it's difficult & expensive to get a spot.

Maybe someone else can verify but I'm very skeptical someone working in the Financial district gets a free parking spot.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't understand this attitude - traffic is awful in Toronto, who really wants to drive in rush hour in this city and pay an arm and a leg for parking? I would have thought most people who drive would either be people who work in the suburbs or people who work downtown but live in areas with poor transit service. Then again, Yonge line overcrowding might explain this. Getting stuck in traffic on Avenue/Yonge/Mt. Pleasant/Bayview may be seen as preferable to taking an overcrowded subway. I think that if the downtown relief line got built then people would stop doing this.

The guy in the next office to mine is the fittest guy I know....cycles daily after work and cycles competitively....not an ounce of fat on the guy......lives, also, about a 5 - 7 minute walk from a subway station....our office sits atop a subway station......does not have company paid parking in our building........drives his prius to the office every single day!

He is just an example....like I said, most of my friends work in the towers down here.....most, unlike me, live in the city and most in very nice 'hoods near the subway.....and they seldom use the subway. I would say I use public transit more than anyone in my social network.....and they don't understand why I do.

I think there is a lot higher stigma attached to public transit in the upper-middle class - wealthy community in this city than we like to admit.

 

[TOareaFan]

No way they get a free parking spot. Granted I don't know a huge amount of Bay St workers but one I do know told me it's difficult & expensive to get a spot.

Maybe someone else can verify but I'm very skeptical someone working in the Financial district gets a free parking spot.

Most companies have "some" employees that get/qualify for a pass. We have about 500 employees at our downtown location and I think the number that qualify for company paid parking is about 10. It is not totally free as the amount paid does get included as taxable benefit.

 

[kEiThZ]

I strongly suspect that those Scarberians are not transit users but are mostly drivers who just want their property values to increase.

Nonsense. People think LRT is second class because they perceive it as slow. And there is some factual basis to that. LRT will definitely be slower than a subway. On the flip side, LRT is faster than a bus, but that's largely because of two features you could easily implement on buses: exclusive right-of-ways and wider stop spacing. How fast would buses be going if they had their own lanes and stops were spaced 400m apart?

At this point, after years of riding the rickety SRT and being promised years and years of change, you can bet that Scarberians feel slighted. And with good reason. Transit investment seems to mysteriously run short at Victoria Park. And for all those cries about ridership, there seems to be no issues sending subways to grassfields in Vaughan. But heaven forbid that somebody invest in a subway along a corridor that falls just below the arbitrary (and ever moving) threshold decided by the powers that be.

At this point, I am resigned to the fact that other nothing will be built or the LRT will be rammed through. The only consolation for me, is that the whole crop of politicians, of all levels, who impose 2hr long commutes on buses for 2-3 years during construction, will pay at the polls at all subsequent elections.

 

[kEiThZ]

No way they get a free parking spot. Granted I don't know a huge amount of Bay St workers but one I do know told me it's difficult & expensive to get a spot.

Maybe someone else can verify but I'm very skeptical someone working in the Financial district gets a free parking spot.

Most companies have "some" employees that get/qualify for a pass. We have about 500 employees at our downtown location and I think the number that qualify for company paid parking is about 10. It is not totally free as the amount paid does get included as taxable benefit.

If you're important enough, your workplace will pay for your parking as part of compensation. Heck, if you are important enough, there will be somebody else driving you to work. And this is not as uncommon as many here would think. A parking pass is miniscule to how much a trader makes his bank. These guys also get free meals and booze. You think the bank cares about $20-$25 per day in parking?

The guy in the next office to mine is the fittest guy I know....cycles daily after work and cycles competitively....not an ounce of fat on the guy......lives, also, about a 5 - 7 minute walk from a subway station....our office sits atop a subway station......does not have company paid parking in our building........drives his prius to the office every single day!

He is just an example....like I said, most of my friends work in the towers down here.....most, unlike me, live in the city and most in very nice 'hoods near the subway.....and they seldom use the subway. I would say I use public transit more than anyone in my social network.....and they don't understand why I do.

I think there is a lot higher stigma attached to public transit in the upper-middle class - wealthy community in this city than we like to admit.

This is UT. It's a bit of a bubble from reality. It's very true. Transit is very much a second choice for those that are well off. And the irony here (from the UT point of view) is that the closer you live to the core (in all those public transit accessible areas), the easier it is to drive to work. The marginal cost may be higher in relative terms, but it's low in absolute terms. If takes you 20 mins on transit but 30 mins in a car, sure your commute is 50% longer, but it's also only 10 minutes longer and you're not standing the whole way in a crowded subway car. For some that's a good trade-off.

In my experience, this set of folks, supports public transit like they do communism: great idea for everyone else.

To be clear, we are talking about people who live in Old Toronto and maybe East York. That's a radius I would say would allow relatively easy access to the core. And we are talking a subset who are also truly well off. Not just 100k per year, which is solidly middle class these days in Hogtown.