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Ontario Liberals and Transit

AlvinofDiaspar said:
I think the support behind subways is complex and not attributable to one group - some stands to benefit due to increase in property values, others support it because it doesn't take away road space; still other support it because in the absence of/knowledge of alternatives they genuinely think it will (and it does) benefit their commute, though plausibly less than they'd think in comparison to other alternatives; and still others way support is solely on the basis of "the slight".

One thing I do find very, very interesting is the incongruence between revenues needed for subway extension and the lack of support for the mechanisms needed - which suggests to me at the end of the day the subway thing is really a sort of crypto-support for status quo - don't want new taxes, want subways but that's only because it doesn't take away my car lanes and someone else is paying for the greatest majority of the cost. It's transit decision-making by non-transit users, essentially.

AoD
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Agreed, and let me say, rail expansion on Stouffivle, Lakeshore East, Havelock (Seaton) would serve more people and be out of the way of cars completely. But this really is about killing on rail transit, just because of a few exaggerated stories from St Clair West and King during rush hour.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Agreed, and let me say, rail expansion on Stouffivle, Lakeshore East, Havelock (Seaton) would serve more people and be out of the way of cars completely. But this really is about killing on rail transit, just because of a few exaggerated stories from St Clair West and King during rush hour.
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What has been exaggerated about King? When a guy like me (ie...old and not in great shape) can walk from Bathurst to Simcoe faster than taking a streetcar....there is an issue with how on street rail transit is operating.
 
kEiThZ said:
Sometimes, I think people on UT don't talk to real residents of this city who actually take transit. You honestly believe that people in Scarborough clamouring for subways, want them because they want to drive to work? I don't like to get political on this. But this is lefty nonsense that has come up in direct reaction to Rob Ford's "War on the Car" propaganda.

Is it really that difficult for members in this forum to actually understand and accept that the average Joe just wants to get to work, and home to his/her family quicker? Honestly....let me know why this concept is beyond the grasp of many here. I'm really curious.
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True to some extent. Many people in Scarborough work somewhere in Scarborough or Markham or somewhere else in the suburbs and probably won't be using transit ever, and don't like how "light rail reduces car lanes". Scarborough (except for Highway 401) definitely has less traffic congestion than most other parts of the GTA. But people who work downtown, in North York Centre, etc. likely will use subways.
 
kEiThZ said:
Sometimes, I think people on UT don't talk to real residents of this city who actually take transit. You honestly believe that people in Scarborough clamouring for subways, want them because they want to drive to work? I don't like to get political on this. But this is lefty nonsense that has come up in direct reaction to Rob Ford's "War on the Car" propaganda.

Is it really that difficult for members in this forum to actually understand and accept that the average Joe just wants to get to work, and home to his/her family quicker? Honestly....let me know why this concept is beyond the grasp of many here. I'm really curious.
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You should have quoted what I've said in the paragraph right before the one you reposted:

I think the support behind subways is complex and not attributable to one group - some stands to benefit due to increase in property values, others support it because it doesn't take away road space; still other support it because in the absence of/knowledge of alternatives they genuinely think it will (and it does) benefit their commute, though plausibly less than they'd think in comparison to other alternatives; and still others way support is solely on the basis of "the slight".
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I think it is a bit simplistic to say that Scarborough want subways for the sole reason that it improves transit - I think that's only an issue for those who benefit from it directly - but support for it is much, much broader than just the commuters. Since you mentioned the "Average Joe" - just what percentage of them would actually benefit from the BD extension on a day to day basis? Certainly numerous, but not likely to explain the level of support, vis-a-vis commuter patterns in the area. You can't play this I don't want to be political about this game while invoking "the slight" left right and centre - that's the essence of political.

andrewpmk said:
True to some extent. Many people in Scarborough work somewhere in Scarborough or Markham or somewhere else in the suburbs and probably won't be using transit ever, and don't like how "light rail reduces car lanes". Scarborough (except for Highway 401) definitely has less traffic congestion than most other parts of the GTA. But people who work downtown, in North York Centre, etc. likely will use subways.
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Thank you, exactly.

AoD
 
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kEiThZ said:
Nonsense. People think LRT is second class because they perceive it as slow. And there is some factual basis to that. LRT will definitely be slower than a subway. On the flip side, LRT is faster than a bus, but that's largely because of two features you could easily implement on buses: exclusive right-of-ways and wider stop spacing. How fast would buses be going if they had their own lanes and stops were spaced 400m apart?
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Which LRTs are slow? Eglinton through the central portion and the Scarborough LRT will/would've been near as fast as our current subways.

I agree with you on the buses. Like I've said in the past, I'd support a BRT on Sheppard instead of LRT, if the residents of Sheppard don't want LRT.

At this point, after years of riding the rickety SRT and being promised years and years of change, you can bet that Scarberians feel slighted. And with good reason. Transit investment seems to mysteriously run short at Victoria Park. And for all those cries about ridership, there seems to be no issues sending subways to grassfields in Vaughan. But heaven forbid that somebody invest in a subway along a corridor that falls just below the arbitrary (and ever moving) threshold decided by the powers that be.
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It runs short at Victoria Park because Scarborough doesn't hold the population density for subways to make sense. Public transit is for moving people, not to make people feel better about themselves. The places we are considering public transit investment in Scarborough only make sense to do because of the feeder bus routes that make rapid transit viable.

We have a subway going to Vaughan because of political reasons and because the people of Vaughan/York region are willing to pay for it. Scarborough (and the rest of this city for that matter) have said no to new taxes, and no to new revenue tools.

At this point, I am resigned to the fact that other nothing will be built or the LRT will be rammed through. The only consolation for me, is that the whole crop of politicians, of all levels, who impose 2hr long commutes on buses for 2-3 years during construction, will pay at the polls at all subsequent elections.
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All I can respond to this point is that politicians shouldn't be planning transit. Period.
 
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kEiThZ said:
Sometimes, I think people on UT don't talk to real residents of this city who actually take transit. You honestly believe that people in Scarborough clamouring for subways, want them because they want to drive to work? I don't like to get political on this. But this is lefty nonsense that has come up in direct reaction to Rob Ford's "War on the Car" propaganda.
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You answered your own question.
 
WislaHD said:
I agree with you on the buses. Like I've said in the past, I'd support a BRT on Sheppard instead of LRT, if the residents of Sheppard don't want LRT.
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I would be curious to see if you can actually put through a Sheppard BRT (dedicated lanes) without raising the same kind of furor (due to reduced lanes and "the slight"). It would certainly be a much cheaper solution.

AoD
 
kEiThZ said:
People keep bringing up this whole caveat "faster speeds in the tunnel". That's only relevant if the tunnel constitutes the majority of your travel. Not the case for someone originating in scarborough and heading to the core or midtown. And entirely irrelevant to the LRT discussion for all of Scarborough, where there will be no tunnelled LRTs.
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The above-ground Scarborough LRT would be traveling in its own corridor completely separated from traffic. It would reach subway-like speeds just like the tunnel portion would.

If this is really the route of concern for Scarborough, then why not advocate for interlining Scarborough LRT with Eglinton Crosstown LRT and elevating Eglinton in Scarborough? Doing this would be much much cheaper than the Scarborough B-D extension, and we can use the leftover money to finance the DRL to even further improve the commute from the east end of the city.
 
TOareaFan said:
What has been exaggerated about King? When a guy like me (ie...old and not in great shape) can walk from Bathurst to Simcoe faster than taking a streetcar....there is an issue with how on street rail transit is operating.
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Not you specifically, (should have so so, sorry) but other people who hate streetcars, and not just from Scarborough.
 
kEiThZ said:
People keep bringing up this whole caveat "faster speeds in the tunnel". That's only relevant if the tunnel constitutes the majority of your travel. Not the case for someone originating in scarborough and heading to the core or midtown. And entirely irrelevant to the LRT discussion for all of Scarborough, where there will be no tunnelled LRTs.
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Someone taking the ECLRT from Kennedy Yonge will have only 4 minutes added on to their trip, compared to if the entire line is grade separated. As someone who will be making that trip almost daily, that 4 minutes really doesn't make a difference to me. It just means I get to listen to one more song on my commute :eek: And I certainly wouldn't support spending billions to save me a measly 4 minutes. The money could be better used elsewhere.

Nor will double standards, like the one where Vaughan gets a subway, but the folks who actually pay taxes to the City of Toronto
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York Region paid for their subway.
 
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andrewpmk said:
LOL 100K/year is not middle class. The median income in Toronto is only 27K/year. 100K/year before tax puts you above the 90th percentile of incomes. Most of Toronto's population doesn't have very much money and Toronto has above-average levels of poverty. I know it may not seem that way when it costs $1 million to buy a decent house in this city, but buying a house in any of the nicer parts of the GTA nowadays is for the very rich only, you practically have to be in the top 1% (and have two incomes) to afford Toronto real estate bubble prices nowadays.

Because Toronto traffic is horrible I think that many rich people will use transit, though the very very rich (a tiny fraction of the population) won't. I don't understand paying $30/day or $500/month or whatever for downtown parking. You do see a significant number of fancy cars driving to and from rich neighbourhoods north of downtown in rush hour, but my guess is most of the people who use downtown parking live way out in the suburbs and pay the inflated parking prices because the transit service in their area is bad.
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I agree with you!

kEiThZ said:
People keep bringing up this whole caveat "faster speeds in the tunnel". That's only relevant if the tunnel constitutes the majority of your travel. Not the case for someone originating in scarborough and heading to the core or midtown. And entirely irrelevant to the LRT discussion for all of Scarborough, where there will be no tunnelled LRTs.

Not to say I don't support LRT. But shady caveated talking points isn't going to help the cause. It comes across as an attempted bait and switch. "This will be exactly like a subway. Promise! (Caveat: only in a tunnel which won't touch your hood)." Nor will double standards, like the one where Vaughan gets a subway, but the folks who actually pay taxes to the City of Toronto, don't. This grievance will only get worse when Yonge is extended to Richmond Hill (even though the extension has a great case).
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Actually I would say for many users of the Crosstown, they will be using the underground part most of the time, if not all of the time. The west side has huge ridership and is completely underground. The east underground part (Leaside area) should have good ridership too, based on current bus ridership. I wouldn't be surprised if almost all of the busiest parts will be on the underground section.


OK with regards to speed in general, speed is not the be-all end-all of transit. Yonge south of Eglinton and the central part of the Bloor subway don't go that fast, yet are extremely well used for example. Yes, buses, subways, LRT, streetcars can all go fast or slow, it's just what are you designing for and how many stops do you want. Sometimes you may want a slower line with more frequent stops, other times you may want very wide stops and fast speed.
 
WislaHD said:
The above-ground Scarborough LRT would be traveling in its own corridor completely separated from traffic. It would reach subway-like speeds just like the tunnel portion would.

If this is really the route of concern for Scarborough, then why not advocate for interlining Scarborough LRT with Eglinton Crosstown LRT and elevating Eglinton in Scarborough? Doing this would be much much cheaper than the Scarborough B-D extension, and we can use the leftover money to finance the DRL to even further improve the commute from the east end of the city.
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Agree. I though this was about eliminate the transfer Kennedy?

TheTigerMaster said:
Someone taking the ECLRT from Kennedy Yonge will have only 4 minutes added on to their trip, compared to if the entire line is grade separated. As someone who will be making that trip almost daily, that 4 minutes really doesn't make a difference to me. It just means I get to listen to one more song on my commute :eek: And I certainly wouldn't support spending billions to save me a measly 4 minutes. The money could be better used elsewhere.



York Region paid for their subway.
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WislaHD said:
We have a subway going to Vaughan because of political reasons and because the people of Vaughan/York region are willing to pay for it. Scarborough (and the rest of this city for that matter) have said no to new taxes, and no to new revenue tools.



All I can respond to this point is that politicians shouldn't be planning transit. Period.
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Scarbororugh will have to support new taxes for Bloor Danforth and Sheppard east, no doubt at all

That, however, does not make it right that Vaughan and Richmond Hill are getting subways.
 
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