OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

First, the OLG announced it would build a casino in the GTA before MGM expressed interest.
Does anyone here really believe that they didn't know exactly where in the GTA they would build it before they made the announcement?

Secondly, back to one of the points I have been stressing, do you think a casino in Toronto will lead to a significant increase in tourism? Sure, existing tourists will go to the casino resort, but do you think MORE people will visit Toronto because of the resort/casino. If not, do you think that the local Toronto businesses who already depend on the tourist dollar would want MGM or Cesears stealing their customers? If the monster resort is built, it is said that the casino will only be 5%-10% of the total resort....so what will the other 90%-95% be?

Lastly, this is a point I have also stressed, Toronto is already developed....so can't the other municipalities is the GTA get some arenas and casinos to help with their development too?

Here is a quote from Rod Phillips (President and CEO of OLG) when asked about the possible location of the casino:
“It should fit into the broader opportunities within a region, around what a local government wants to accomplish. One of the things we haven’t done as well as we could have in the past is be aligned to the local municipalities own development expectations. So if there are parts of the GTA or a municipality where there is an interest in developing that place…you know this isn’t something that’s in people’s backyards, it’s going to be something that’s going to be in a location where it makes sense, where a municipality is trying to develop a portion of that areaâ€.

Like I said, if you are about Markham, then keep it about Markham. Oakville and Oshawa and Burlington, have all said they don't want this as as a person who resides in the GTA you should be concerned with the whole of the region in some capacity. You should consider the facts that many of your arguments can be used for Markham and Casinos will bring an increase in crime, something many don't want.

 

[jaycola]

A monster casino resort would suck the life out of Toronto tourism just like it has in so many other cities across North America.
Toronto shouldn't have a monster casino resort.....IMO

A casino would be a small (but hopefully considerable) portion of the tourist economy in real terms and would certainly not "suck the life out of Toronto tourism".

A large portion of the tourist industry is driven by the conference industry. Adding a casino to the widely varied offerings of the city would only boost our prospects as a major conference centre. I spent 5 days in Vegas last year. I spent one day gaming (wife and I were up $600) and the rest of the time visiting other resorts, watching shows (cirque and stage) and eating...eating...eating.

Our newest and finest hotels are all centred around the downtown core. Our major tourists attractions are mainly found in the core. Our famous neighbourhoods are found in the city.

I agree with coolcanadian that a casino could work in Markham but a casino would thrive at Ex/OP. For those worrying about giving up a valuable piece of Toronto's waterfront look at how much there is left to develop and look at the rate we have been developing it. It will take another 40 years before we run out of developable land.

Here is a little piece on the Toronto tourism numbers from last year... I think Toronto tourism will do just fine with the addition of a casino. Source

Toronto reached an important tourism milestone in 2011 — hotel room bookings surpassed the nine million mark for the first time.

Tourism Toronto released the encouraging figures this week and outlined where the visitor surges came from.

A record 9.1 million hotel rooms were booked in the city in 2011, which marks a 2.8 per cent increase from 2010. More than 1,000 new rooms opened in Toronto last year — many of them in luxury hotels including the Ritz-Carlton, Thompson and Le Germain Maple Leaf Square.

There was a 6.2 per cent increase in international travellers in the city last year, the agency said, with the highest growth among Chinese (representing a 34.5 per cent increase) and Indian tourists (a 13.2 per cent increase).

Italians visited Toronto in increasing numbers (a 9.3 per cent hike in 2011), as did Brazilians (9.2 per cent more).

The highest number of overseas visitors still came from the United Kingdom, even though numbers were down by about three per cent last year. Just over 191,000 people from the U.K. came to Toronto last year, Tourism Toronto said.

And visits from our neighbours to the south were up last year, as well.

There was a 2.7 per cent increase in overnight visits from Americans last year for a total of two million.

"Toronto has a new lustre among sophisticated U.S. travellers, illustrated by its inclusion as one of Travel + Leisure magazine's 'Hottest Destinations in 2012,'" Tourism Toronto president David Whitaker said in a statement Monday. "Getting that kind of recommendation is a real coup and we should all be proud that the efforts so many have put into building this city over the past decade are being recognized."

Tourism Toronto also credited the fact the city is now a major destination for business meetings and conventions for the boost in visitors last year.

And it will only get better this summer when Microsoft hosts its 2012 Worldwide Partner Conference in Toronto. More than 15,000 people are expected to attend.

 

[coolcanadian]

Thank you jaycola!!! I would first like to say that for those people who are against casinos and gambling, I will not fight what you believe. However, people gamble no matter what. A casino is coming to the GTA no matter what. Why not put it in Toronto, so it can be something more than just 'a casino'? Saying that crime will drastically increase when we build a casino is B.S. and everyone knows it. Sure, there can be crimes related to gambling, but our city will not become Detroit because we have a casino.

Vancouver is safe, Melbourne is safe, Montreal is safe. They all have casinos. Yes, a boring casino could go anywhere in the GTA. That would be lost potential.

We should build this somewhere where it will do the best it can do. If we revamp Ontario Place and merge it with The Ex, it needs something to attract people there. A casino with a huge resort, restaurants and shops could go along with shows, rides, and other attractions. It could make OP an amazing place again. I personally would have no use for a casino, but if this includes a very nice hotel and other attractions, which it can in Toronto, then me and my family would surely go!

 

[Markham VIP]

Like I said, if you are about Markham, then keep it about Markham. Oakville and Oshawa and Burlington, have all said they don't want this as as a person who resides in the GTA you should be concerned with the whole of the region in some capacity. You should consider the facts that many of your arguments can be used for Markham and Casinos will bring an increase in crime, something many don't want.

It is hard for me to imagine crime in a place that is all fields right now. Crime does not exist is Downtown Markham right now, so it's hard to picture a casino leading to an increase in criminal activity.
Nonetheless, in my opinon, the economic benefit from having a casino far outweighs the "possible" increase in crime.
Infact, it can be argued that the increased employment rate in the area will help put money in peoples pockets, thereby reducing the risk of crime from those desperate for money. So will the crime rate in the area actually increase?

Crime is going to happen anywhere....human beings are not perfect. Therefore, if someone commits a crime in Downtown Markham, is it because of the casino, or would that person have committed that crime even if the casino wasn't there? How can you determine the reason for the crime? Do people really think that a casino will lead to a crime-wave in the GTA? Why? Because someone can lose all their money at the casino and will start stealing to recoup his/her losses? People who want to gamble to the point where they steal in order to feed that gambling habit can already do the same thing playing online. If they prefer casinos, then they can easily drive to Rama or Niagara. I wonder what the crime rate is in Orillia? The OLG has already pointed out in their modernization report that $billions of dollars leave the Province every year through online gambling. Are those all the people who are committing the crimes in the GTA? I think we may have stumbled upon the greatest law enforcement breakthough in history....let's just track the people who gamble!

I am not a criminal psychologist, but I am sure that the reason people commit crimes is a very complicated subject. It's not as simple as someone gambling their money away so they have to steal.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It is hard for me to imagine crime in a place that is all fields right now. Crime does not exist is Downtown Markham right now, so it's hard to picture a casino leading to an increase in criminal activity.
Nonetheless, in my opinon, the economic benefit from having a casino far outweighs the "possible" increase in crime.
Infact, it can be argued that the increased employment rate in the area will help put money in peoples pockets, thereby reducing the risk of crime from those desperate for money. So will the crime rate in the area actually increase?

Crime is going to happen anywhere....human beings are not perfect. Therefore, if someone commits a crime in Downtown Markham, is it because of the casino, or would that person have committed that crime even if the casino wasn't there? How can you determine the reason for the crime? Do people really think that a casino will lead to a crime-wave in the GTA? Why? Because someone can lose all their money at the casino and will start stealing to recoup his/her losses? People who want to gamble to the point where they steal in order to feed that gambling habit can already do the same thing playing online. If they prefer casinos, then they can easily drive to Rama or Niagara. I wonder what the crime rate is in Orillia? The OLG has already pointed out in their modernization report that $billions of dollars leave the Province every year through online gambling. Are those the all the people who are committing the crimes in the GTA? I think we may have stumbled upon the greatest law enforcement breakthough in history....let's just track the people who gamble!

I am not a criminal psychologist, but I am sure that the reason people commit crimes is a very complicated subject. It's not as simple as someone gambling their money away so they have to steal.

So you don't know then if Crime will rise. But you do know if the Toronto area gets a casino, it will be only 1 and Toronto will not get one if Markham gets one.

 

[Markham VIP]

So you don't know then if Crime will rise. But you do know if the Toronto area gets a casino, it will be only 1 and Toronto will not get one if Markham gets one.

How are you so sure of that?
How can you say that 100% there will not be 2 casinos in the GTA in the next 10 years? The GTA is one of the biggest markets in North America. So what are you trying to say?
Are you saying we cannot support a second casino?
Are you saying that you can see into the future?
Who is going to win the Stanley Cup this year? Maybe I should place a bet...but wait....I don't want to start a life of crime.

I think that the GTA can more than support two casinos. I think that if one is successful and thriving in downtown Markham, the Province is likely to approve a second for doentown Toronto (especially if they are trying to pay down debt). The GTA is one of the most underserviced areas for gaming facilities....but I suspect that will change in the next 10 years.

 

[sixrings]

Truthfully if it's successful I'd rather a second casino built in the same area. It seems to make sense. That a entertainment district is formed in one area versus trying to spread it thin around to many places

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How are you so sure of that?
How can you say that 100% there will not be 2 casinos in the GTA in the next 10 years? The GTA is one of the biggest markets in North America. So what are you trying to say?
Are you saying we cannot support a second casino?
Are you saying that you can see into the future?
Who is going to win the Stanley Cup this year? Maybe I should place a bet...but wait....I don't want to start a life of crime.

I think that the GTA can more than support two casinos. I think that if one is successful and thriving in downtown Markham, the Province is likely to approve a second for doentown Toronto (especially if they are trying to pay down debt). The GTA is one of the most underserviced areas for gaming facilities....but I suspect that will change in the next 10 years.

There are place in this province outside Markham. Windsor, Rama, Niagara will hurt if the GTA gets more gaming facilities. They get less travelers = less money, the GTA is under serviced because people now drive to these outside areas. That will change with 2 casinos in the GTA.

 

[Markham VIP]

Truthfully if it's successful I'd rather a second casino built in the same area. It seems to make sense. That a entertainment district is formed in one area versus trying to spread it thin around to many places

LOL...now your just being greedy!
So Toronto gets TWO casinos and Markham gets ZERO?
Here is where you have to think like an economist.....will the marginal economic benefit be greater if you put the second casino right beside the first one, or would the economic benefit be greater if you put the second one somewhere else? In other words, will the restaurants and retail and hotels benefit MORE from a second casino in the area? Will they benefit more than the restaurants, retail, and hotel would in another area?...I think not my friend....

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Truthfully if it's successful I'd rather a second casino built in the same area. It seems to make sense. That a entertainment district is formed in one area versus trying to spread it thin around to many places

Ideal to be honest.

 

[Markham VIP]

There are place in this province outside Markham. Windsor, Rama, Niagara will hurt if the GTA gets more gaming facilities. They get less travelers = less money, the GTA is under serviced because people now drive to these outside areas. That will change with 2 casinos in the GTA.

Those casinos are not making the amount of money as the did in the past. The OLG modernization report states the increase in the number of casinos along American border cities, as well as the increased Canadian dollar, has lead to a decrease in revenues at other Ontario casinos.

The OLG in changing their business model....as they should.
They are brining the casinos closer to those that play them.
On a per capita basis, the Province of Ontario gets the least amount of gambling revenues from residents compared to other provinces in Canada.
What are they to do? Continue forever with their underperforming casinos?

 

[adma]

No offence, but saying that is kind of stupid. First of all, if MGM wants to work with OLG to make an amazing, multi-billion-dollar casino-mega-resort entertainment complex, as they have said they have, then we should definitely consider that as a probably option.

A beautiful casino and entertainment complex will attract tourists, but it will also be used by people within the GTA. Look at Ontario Place or the ROM or Wonderland. They are all tourist attraction that host many visitors to the city, however citizens from the GTA still use them. OP as in when it was used in its prime.

You are pretty much saying the people of the GTA don't need something magnificent.

Lets not build an awesome beautiful casino resort with entertainment options that will attract tourists and be used by residents. Instead, lets build a new Rama closer to the GTA.

Yes, downtown Markham is great. However, this could be something amazing. It could be part of the new OP/Ex (look at what I posted previously).

When MGM, Caesar's and other mega companies are interested in building a grand complex that will attract tourism and be used by residents, then we don't say "lets build our own Rama"...

You know, coolcanadian, the way you straight-facedly use florid adjectives, etc, like I've highlighted, you truly sound like an easily-impressed rube.

I'm practically expecting you to suggest that Toronto needs the most magnificent Thomas Kinkade gallery in the world in order to draw the tourists

Incidentally, do you know who she is?

If you don't, then get out of Urban Toronto. Vamoose. You're out of your depth here.

 

[coolcanadian]

You know, coolcanadian, the way you straight-facedly use florid adjectives, etc, like I've highlighted, you truly sound like an easily-impressed rube.

I'm practically expecting you to suggest that Toronto needs the most magnificent Thomas Kinkade gallery in the world in order to draw the tourists

Incidentally, do you know who she is?

If you don't, then get out of Urban Toronto. Vamoose. You're out of your depth here.

1. I am not easily impressed. However, I am certain that with 6 BILLION DOLLARS, this can be a beautiful, magnificent, awesome, amazing, grand complex.

If you would rather see some boring old casino in downtown Markham, then cool. I want this to be something huge, and if built by MGM/other company in Toronto it will be.

2. I'm not sure what your going on about in the second part of your post, and what about Jane Jacobs? I will not leave the forum simply because you don't agree with me.

 

[Markham VIP]

1. I am not easily impressed. However, I am certain that with 6 BILLION DOLLARS, this can be a beautiful, magnificent, awesome, amazing, grand complex.

If you would rather see some boring old casino in downtown Markham, then cool. I want this to be something huge, and if built by MGM/other company in Toronto it will be.

2. I'm not sure what your going on about in the second part of your post, and what about Jane Jacobs? I will not leave the forum simply because you don't agree with me.

$6 Billion Dollars.....really?
Do you think that MGM is going to invest 6 BILLION?
I know they said 2-6 Billion....which is a ridiculously big range.
More than likely, their investment will be closer to the lower end of the estimate....you are kidding yourself if you think it'll be 6 Billion.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

1. I am not easily impressed. However, I am certain that with 6 BILLION DOLLARS, this can be a beautiful, magnificent, awesome, amazing, grand complex.

If you would rather see some boring old casino in downtown Markham, then cool. I want this to be something huge, and if built by MGM/other company in Toronto it will be.

2. I'm not sure what your going on about in the second part of your post, and what about Jane Jacobs? I will not leave the forum simply because you don't agree with me.

$6 Billion Dollars.....really?
Do you think that MGM is going to invest 6 BILLION?
I know they said 2-6 Billion....which is a ridiculously big range.
More than likely, their investment will be closer to the lower end of the estimate....you are kidding yourself if you think it'll be 6 Billion.

He feels that this is an urban forum and as such a casino does not belong in an urban city like Toronto, hence the JJ shot.

Frankly, the investment will be 4.5 billion dollars.