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New Transit Funding Sources

just because a party has the same name doesn't mean it is still the same party as it was 20 years ago.. unless of course your party is largely composed of the same people. (like it is now, where the PCs still have a large proportion of Harris years politicians)

I would say that the proportion of Liberals who were there under McGuinty is much higher. And McGuintys' record of waste, incompetance and general economic record (becoming have-not province, increasing deficit and debt, unemployment rate below national average) is something that should truly resonate with voters.
 
I never claimed that the liberals aren't the same, they are very similar. In fact, the big move was a McGuinty policy that Wynne took up.

also, how is Ontario a "have-not" province? last time I checked Toronto still growing by 100,000 people per year. is it because of federal redistrubution? if so, I wouldn't read too much into that, that is largely just spreading around oil money.

and an uneployment rate below the national average is a good thing. an employment rate below the national average could become troublesome however.

also, if the polls are indicating anything, it isn't resonating. Liberals are still polling very close to, if not tied with the PCs.
 
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I would say that the proportion of Liberals who were there under McGuinty is much higher. And McGuintys' record of waste, incompetance and general economic record (becoming have-not province, increasing deficit and debt, unemployment rate below national average) is something that should truly resonate with voters.

Are you suggesting that the general economic record would have been significantly different vis-a-vis the Conservatives? The issues are structural (post-industrial slump tied to the deep US recession, high commodity prices, etc) and as such requires time to deal with regardless of who is in power.

AoD
 
And McGuintys' record of waste, incompetance and general economic record (becoming have-not province, increasing deficit and debt, unemployment rate below national average) is something that should truly resonate with voters.
This is like saying the Federal Conservatives are fiscally irresponsible because they have been running record deficits. McGuinty did make several mistakes, but the overall economic woes have been much more driven by Alberta and the global recession. Alberta because Canada now is a petro-dollar, and rising oil prices/revenues have hollowed out the manufacturing base in Ontario/Quebec. The global recession because we were running surplus budgets until then.
 
Accept transit "hard truths" and get on with planning, Royson James says

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...d_get_on_with_planning_royson_james_says.html

.....

The “hard truths”:

• Subways are not the only good form of transit.

• Transit does not automatically drive development. Transit’s lifeblood is jobs along a route, not massive number of condos or people.

• Building a transit line is not the main expense; maintenance and operating costs are huge.

• Everyone benefits from transit: riders, business, drivers and a region’s economy.

• Transit building is vigorous in the region and not at a standstill as it appears.

• Cuts to government waste alone cannot fund transit.

- Only the second one — transit doesn’t necessarily lead to increased development that delivers new riders (build it and they will come) — should raise eyebrows as it goes against conventional wisdom. The Sheppard subway from Yonge to Don Mills is a perfect example. It was supposed to spark development — and it did. More than 20 highrise towers are supposed to go in around Sheppard and Leslie on the Canadian Tire lands. Unfortunately, it’s not nearly enough to deliver riders, for several reasons.

- For one, a subway gobbles up so many people per hour that all the condos planned along Sheppard don’t generate enough riders. Secondly, even if there were enough people in those towers, their places of work are so dispersed that we can’t build enough subways to take them to their work and school destinations all across the region. Where a subway works best is in delivering workers to their jobs. Such high-capacity transit is needed in corridors where people must go for work and serve as a funnel to get them there.

.....
 
The “hard truths”:

• Subways are not the only good form of transit.
True. I just came back from London UK and the DLR is fantastic. So is Milan's Streetcar network which I find similar to our own.

• Transit does not automatically drive development. Transit’s lifeblood is jobs along a route, not massive number of condos or people.
Well...Transit planning needs to be harmonized with good city planning as well. On it's own, I agree. Just look at the Spadina line's lack of density around it's stations until recently. Again, the DRL and the Jubilee line on it's own would have not revitalized the docklands and Canary Wharf since there would have been nowhere to go. It took great city planning and vision to make it work.

• Building a transit line is not the main expense; maintenance and operating costs are huge.
True

• Everyone benefits from transit: riders, business, drivers and a region’s economy.
True

• Transit building is vigorous in the region and not at a standstill as it appears.
True

• Cuts to government waste alone cannot fund transit.
True but it helps when they are not wasting billions on gas plant, e-health, ornge, subways to Vaughan etc...

- Only the second one — transit doesn’t necessarily lead to increased development that delivers new riders (build it and they will come) — should raise eyebrows as it goes against conventional wisdom. The Sheppard subway from Yonge to Don Mills is a perfect example. It was supposed to spark development — and it did. More than 20 highrise towers are supposed to go in around Sheppard and Leslie on the Canadian Tire lands. Unfortunately, it’s not nearly enough to deliver riders, for several reasons.

The main reason being that it's incomplete and doesn't go anywhere. To be fair, (which he's far from being), Sheppard has incredibly changed within 10 years. Eglinton should have been a subway WAY before Sheppard since it had the numbers. I believe that you build subways where the density justify it first and then (and only then) you use it to expand and increase development like the Jubilee Line to Canary Wharf which connects City of London to Canary Wharf or like Paris connecting "La Defense" to its core by rapid transit.

Sheppard Subway was premature and built for the wrong reasons, but you can't argue with the results nonetheless.

For one, a subway gobbles up so many people per hour that all the condos planned along Sheppard don’t generate enough riders.
Although he's correct, the Sheppard Subway is only 10 years old and incomplete. Despite this huge disadvantage, the development along Sheppard Avenue East is undeniable.

Secondly, even if there were enough people in those towers, their places of work are so dispersed that we can’t build enough subways to take them to their work and school destinations all across the region. Where a subway works best is in delivering workers to their jobs. Such high-capacity transit is needed in corridors where people must go for work and serve as a funnel to get them there.

Aren't they mostly going downtown? This is why the Yonge line trains are full by Sheppard-Yonge in the morning. It also demonstrates that the future DRL reaching Don Mills and Sheppard has its merits if you plan on extending Yonge to Richmond Hill.

LRT designed like the DLR in London would be great. The whole problem with Transit city is that the Sheppard LRT and the Finch LRT are not even close to the DLR service level. The initial plans showed the vehicles stopping at red lights and the stops being too close (400 m in average) just to avoid having to run parallel bus services for local stops which slows down the service.

If Metrolinx did the following:
-eliminates a few stops with a stop spacing of let's say between 650 to 800m with TTC running a parallel service like on Yonge st. and Sheppard Avenue East
-Priority lights (like Europe) where the trains never waits at a red light
-increased operating speed

LRT would have been embraced long ago and would have killed Ford's crusade a long time ago. Miller wanted those LRT lines except Eglinton central portion, to be operated as "streetcars +" taking "the speed out of rapid transit"...Did I just quote Royson James article that he wrote criticizing Transit City a couple of years back? ;)

ujln.jpg


I would take the above map (add Jane to Finch) anytime. Hopefully, that's what Metrolinx is aiming for and with the increase costs of building those lines, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the smaller stops gets cut in the end.
 
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Building subways to Vaughan, I thought most of the subway is in Toronto and also most of the stations. There has been talk of a subway to York University since the 90's. So because it goes 2 km into Vaughan, it means it's useless now?
 
Three of the ten worst intersections for traffic congestion in Toronto are along the Sheppard Subway. See link.

citopgridlock14.jpeg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpeg


So much for relieving road congestion with a subway... not.

Allen Road & Sheppard : No rapid transit from Jane to Sheppard-Yonge. The 84 is insufficient during rush hour
Bayview & Sheppard: No infrastructure to allow drivers to park their cars to use the subway & No rapid transit coming from East of Don Mills and North of Sheppard (meaning they would rather drive than being caught in traffic in a bus)

It won't relieve anything if the line remains incomplete
 
So much for relieving road congestion with a subway... not.
I don't know if subways are supposed to relieve road congestion ... presumably if you make extra capacity along such busy roads by moving riders to transit, then the road fills in again with more cars, eventually.

Isn't it about increasing the capacity of the entire system? Without the existing subways you wouldn't be able to have as many workers downtown.

In fact, doesn't the road congestion along Sheppard make the case for underground rather than surface transit, as you then separate the transit from the cars.

Given that buses are often impacted by the same traffic, you can see how getting something in Scarborough north of 401 will speed up commuters ... and also 2 of those points are near the Spadina subway extension. Personally some of the worse traffic I've seen inside the city has been trying to drive south from the York University area in rush hour. Something I've stopped trying to do since the BRT was built.
 
Building subways to Vaughan, I thought most of the subway is in Toronto and also most of the stations. There has been talk of a subway to York University since the 90's. So because it goes 2 km into Vaughan, it means it's useless now?

Yes it is. The money used to dig and build stations between York University and Vaughan ***cough*** Metropolitain or is it corporate ***cough*** centre could have been used on other projects like getting Eglinton farther west or Finch LRT all the way to Yonge.
 
Yes it is. The money used to dig and build stations between York University and Vaughan ***cough*** Metropolitain or is it corporate ***cough*** centre could have been used on other projects like getting Eglinton farther west or Finch LRT all the way to Yonge.

I thought, though, that additional cost was covered by York Region who, I would presume, would not be as willing to fund those other projects you mention as they are not in York Region.
 
Additional costs as capital costs, yes

Operational and maintenance costs, no
York Region like Toronto contributed money so it's like they are getting the extension for free.

Also if they do contribute operating and maintenance funds, why should it go to fund projects in Toronto?
 

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