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Multiple Victims of Shooting in Scarborough

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I think there is more of a correlation between crime and neighbourhood vs crime and race. These murders have very little to do with race.
Of course there's a correlation between neighborhood (ie: income level) and crime - that's the single biggest factor. But when you look more closely at those neighborhoods, it doesn't take long to realize that the social/cultural/racial make up of those communities does not simply mirror the rest of the population. There are social/cultural/racial elements to poverty, and social/cultural/racial elements to what kind of crime people turn to.

Education is the single biggest way to improve your lot in life regardless of your background, but if kids/parents think it's OK to skip/fail/drop out and live by either sponging off the system or turning to the easy money of crime - then what can anyone from outside do? You can't compel someone to think.

People are dying because of neighbourhood stigmas as opposed to cultural stigmas.
You have this somewhat backwards. People are not dying because of the stigmas - the stigmas exist because people are dying (or dealing/robbing/shooting).
 
People are not dying because of the stigmas - the stigmas exist because people are dying (or dealing/robbing/shooting).
People are dying because they either bled out or had internal organs fatally hit. This was caused by gunshot - that's the causation. The rest is just background with some correlation.

Stigma doesn't kill you, bullets do.
 
Montréal Gazette, editorial cartoon:

6953933.bin
 
More on Rob Ford's banishment solution to gang violence.

Heck, if the Prince can banish Romeo from Verona, why can't Ford banish the thugs from Toronto? ;)

Mayor Rob Ford says he will ask the prime minister to look at using “immigration laws” to banish convicted gang members from Toronto.

Ford first made the unusual banishment proposal in a CP24 interview on Wednesday afternoon. In that interview, he did not make it clear whether he was seeking legislative reform or merely asking convicts to voluntarily leave town.

In a second interview on Wednesday evening, he indicated that he wants changes in federal law. Asked by AM640’s Arlene Bynon how convicts could be kept from living here, he said: "I don't know, and that's what I'm going to sit down with the prime minister and find out, how our immigration laws work."

The police have not publicly said that the shooting Monday in Scarborough was perpetrated by immigrants. Ford did not elaborate on the connection he sees between gang violence and immigration, and he did not explain how he believes immigration laws might factor into his proposal.

* * *

Ford was the lone member of council to vote against $16 million in community grants last week. He told Bynon that such social spending is not effective as a solution to youth violence.

“It’s a proven fact that when we had the most murders in the city, it was the same time that we had the most grants. I think we handed out over $50 million that year in grants. Throwing money at the problem, and having these, I call ‘hug-a-thug programs,’ they just do not work,” he said.

Ford’s stated “fact” is incorrect. Homicides peaked in 2007, with 86. The Community Partnership and Investment Program, which handles grants, had a budget of about $42 million that year. CPIP’s budget rose in future years as homicides dropped steadily; it gave out a high of $47 million in grants in 2011, when the city recorded 48 homicides, the fewest in many years.
 
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Here's the thing about assuming... it's usually based on a previously established pattern.

29 people have been killed in Toronto this year. 21 of them have been black. If you had to make an assumption on who the shooters were... ?

I don't know if you're posting on other forums and carrying their thought processes over here, but no one is suggesting that all black people are to blame for this shooting. Or that all black people are criminals. Efforts have been made to state the opposite, repeatedly - BUT - if you try to sweep under the rug the fact that a disproportionate number of shooting victims and their shooter happen to be black, and seemingly glorify a subset of 'modern black culture' where "guns and drugs and pimps and gangstas" are the role models - then yeah, people are going to use the term "black" to describe them and it's less about their actual color and more about their "culture".

Most people of varying black cultures or backgrounds understand the difference between being black by skin color and being black by culture.



Again - I need to be clear and agree with others that a very small number of people are involved here, but most do share common traits. If you hear in the news that a pedophile is moving into a neighborhood, you think middle aged white guy. When you hear about biker wars, you think white guys. When you hear about a grow up being busted, you might think Vietnamese. When you hear about 21 people (!) being shot up at a party, it's a fairly safe thing to assume the person was one of Toronto's thug/dealer/gangsta types, which are predominantly made up of young black men.

OK, so you think that process is damaging. If someone shoots up a party, I'm sorry, but referring to that person as a "thug" is a hands down safe bet description of that person. WTF else do you think a thug is, if not someone who carries a gun and shoots up a party?


I don't think its right to say that pimps , drugs, and shooting people is "black culture" I don't think anyone would say cyrstal meth , satanism, singing about killing your parents ect, is white culture?
There is no Blackland, or Blackopotamia , or United Republic of Black, that says shooting is part of its culture.

Black as a skin colour?, naw i'd say the majority of the time its different variations of a brown copper tone

Black is a brand given to people of African decent by foreigners. Black is an adjective .
 
Classy, considering their little mafia problem and recent Luka Magnotta incident..
I don't see anything in that illustration that's commenting on the Montreal situation.

And really - criticizing Aislin of all people? Are you kidding me? I'm surprised that the Montreal police or Parti Quebecois haven't put a contract out on him, given what he's done to them in the past.

Besides ... even with all that, they still have a lower murder rate than us.
 
I don't think its right to say that pimps , drugs, and shooting people is "black culture" I don't think anyone would say cyrstal meth , satanism, singing about killing your parents ect, is white culture?
There is no Blackland, or Blackopotamia , or United Republic of Black, that says shooting is part of its culture.

Black as a skin colour?, naw i'd say the majority of the time its different variations of a brown copper tone

Black is a brand given to people of African decent by foreigners. Black is an adjective .
While what you say is mostly true, it's also not complete.

You're right that black is brand, and while it may once have been given to them by foreigners or non-blacks, "black" is also a brand in terms of fashion, music and lifestyle. This is what I'm talking about. There is a subculture that has tried to turn what was once negative into a positive. The N word used to be an insult, but has become a slang word reclaimed by blacks and used to describe themselves and others. Dealing drugs or being a pimp used be viewed negatively, but when people realized they could market that as a lifestyle of success, they profit from it at the expense of others who are negatively affected by the crimes and/or stereotypes they have successfully created and/or perpetuated. Ebonics used to be a sign of failed grammar and language, but has instead become cool, spawning all sorts of new slang and spelling that would never exist if it wasn't first tried to turn a negative into a positive.

I understand with the thinking that you turn your weaknesses into strengths - you take away the insult and turn it into something cool. The problem is that North American black culture is still very young. You're right that there is no Blackland or United Republic of Black. If there was, it would be far easier to follow an established history or culture rather than continually recreate one on the fly and sometimes going to extremes in doing so. You can look back over the past 50-100 years in North America and see the changes that "black culture" has gone through and it continues to evolve. We're experiencing something that I hope will pass, and I see prominent blacks consciously trying to change it. What used to be Allan Iverson in cornrows and baggy jerseys is morphing into Dwyane Wade with his vests and glasses. I don't think for a second it's accidental, but it won't happen fast enough and it won't reach everyone.

We use the term black, though "African American" is probably more accurate. I don't like using the term since blacks in Canada are different. They are a far more diverse mix of Caribbean and African backgrounds, along with some who entered Canada through the underground railroad. There may have been racism and slavery in Canada (like everywhere in the world), but not to the extent that it happened in the US and it didn't damage and stifle the integration and development of blacks like it has in the States. The problem is that we are a small country (population wise) living next to the world's largest exporter of culture - many kinds - from country to porn to blues to guns and yes - types of "African American" culture which some people - myself included - will sometimes just call "black culture" because we're not American and the people involved are often far removed from Africa. Part of this culture carries a very large chip on its shoulder because of the more difficult history blacks have had in the US. It's kind of ridiculous for black kids in Canada to talk like kids from South Central, but it's equally ridiculous that white kids would spraypaint anarchy symbols on their leather jackets - it happens. Culture spreads.

Toronto is a little unique in that we have a strong Jamaican population, which itself is an exporter of culture in terms of music, religion, food, drug use, crime, etc... some is positive, some is negative, but all of it comes into play when children without role models, goals or strong parents start to look for something to belong to, something to become. Instead of teaching them that hard work and education will get them somewhere in life, we teach them that they're incapable of overcoming their circumstances. Instead of teaching them - and expecting from them middle class values that built this country - we teach them how awful those middle class people are and guilt those same middle class people into subsidizing the poor decisions of those who become dependent on that help, thus taking away the very tools they need to overcome and change.

This applies to any race, background or culture that lives below what we consider comfortable standards in Canada. It happens among many immigrant groups - they learn to game the system and abuse the generosity of the majority of middle class Canadians who work hard to get somewhere in life and to build something for their children. it's not a black-specific thing at all, but it does not change the fact that gun crime in particular does seem to be a black thing, in recognizably higher percentages than other cultures. The combination of Jamaican and Somali criminality that is imported, along with subsets of "African American" culture that glorifies crime and guns and killing does play a role in this, so let's not simply dismiss is as "blaming rap music", which is not what I have done.
 
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Toronto Star's GTA homocide map.

Toronto Durham Halton Peel York Total
2010: 61 7 2 7 7 84
2011: 46 2 4 16 8 76

Toronto actually now has 50 murders in 2011. I guess the Toronto Police count someone who dies in 2012 from injuries in 2011 as a 2011 murder. I noticed that the 2011 murder count on the website has steadily creeped up to 50.
 
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