Multiple Victims of Shooting in Scarborough

[Peepers]

Your chart shows the rate of violent crimes being higher in 2007 than in 1962. If it is the case that the higher rate of violent crimes has anything to do with the homicide rate then why is it that this chart http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11692/c-g/11692-chart10-eng.jpg shows that the rate of homicides in 1981 was higher than it was in 2007. Based on the direction of this wikipedia chart shouldn't we expect the opposite?

I don't see a contradiction between the statcan data and the wikipedia chart. Violent crime peaked in the early 1990's and has been in a slow but steady decline since then.

 

[Electrify]

Can we stop using skin colour alone to define the criminals? Would we put Vietnamese and Japanese together when we generalize about Asian crime? I'm a white immigrant from the UK, but culturally have little in common with recent white immigrants from Russia or eastern Europe.

It's perfectly fine to look for commonalities in all forms, including skin colour in order to find correlations and possible causation, but It's sloppy writing to just say "blacks" since the group is much, much too wide. Let's dig a little deeper.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was trying to illustrate your point, that poverty is a key cause and not race. For example, Blacks make up the highest proportion of those in poverty, and they make up the highest proportion involved in violent crime. Those from India and South Asia make up the second largest block of poverty, and the second largest block in violent crime. Middle Easterners... etc.

Anyways, to people like Max who think it is a Black issue, take a look at the violent crime in Central and Western Canada. There it isn't a "Black" issue, it is a "Native" issue since they make up the highest proportion of those in poverty. What they have in common is that it is a POVERTY issue!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't think that there is any statistical information to support this. While it is true that in the relatively short term, murder rates have been stabilizing or slightly on the decline if we take a longer look at violent crime rates in Canada we can see that there has been a dramatic five-fold increase in all violent crimes (which include murder) during this period.

That's reaching - just because there is a 5 fold increase in all violent crimes didn't meant that there is a 5 fold increase in murder. Your data made no distinction, and to reach the conclusion that you have is misinterpretation. Second, the percentage of VisMin in Canada is at an all time high, and yet violent crimes had plateaued and declined. As such, TR's argument is spot on - at the very least, we can dismiss the more simplistic models of supposed correlations (we haven't even gotten to causation yet).

I don't see a contradiction between the statcan data and the wikipedia chart. Violent crime peaked in the early 1990's and has been in a slow but steady decline since then.

Actually, there is - violent crime increased rapidly between 79 and 92 in chart you've posted - and yet during the same period murder and attempted murder rates were plateaued/in slight decline, if you insist on drawing parallels between two sets of data that are not interchangable.

AoD

 

[Max Sterling]

Everyone is well aware of that fact, but looking at their skin colour only tells you a very tiny part of the story, and it's hardly worth emphasising anymore.

One only needs to look as far as Hamilton to see widespread 'white' crime.

While there are no doubt cultural elements prevalent in some vulnerable black communities that contribute to elevated crime rates, the social class that these communities belong to behaves violently - black or non-black - elsewhere in Canada.

Also, I don't believe there is such a thing as a homogeneous 'black community'. My Nigerian friends always kept to themselves, and my Caribbean friends likewise. It would be like suggesting Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese belong to the same community, or that Argentinians, Irish, and Ukranians are all the same.

The problem is not that you are narrowing crime down to the black community, but that you are stopping there. The main sources of criminal activity can be narrowed down much further, and race becomes much less relevant as you do.

I agree with you that there isn't such a thing as a homogenous black community, BUT most of the criminals and victims of crime and murder in Toronto are black though so while its unfortunate that your Nigerian friends might be lumped into this group (if they're young males), its not anyone's fault but blacks themselves for how people see young black males these days.

Also social class is not the main reason why blacks behave the way that they do, its mostly to do with how poorly they've been raised. If you don't believe this, then tell me why young non-black males who live right next door to these young black kids in the exact same neighborhoods don't grow up to commit the amount of crime and murder as black males do? Doesn't this imply that it has more to do with good parenting and being surrounded by good friends and family and being raised properly than it does with how much money you have?

I have no problem looking at the numbers and seeing that a disproportionate amount of gun crime in Toronto is black related, but to sit there and make ridiculously ignorant, sweeping generalziations about an entire racial group is bullshit. Just based on your comments you have no idea what your'e talking about. This is a far more complex problem than you think. If you could open your eyes for a second, gun crime is not a racial problem..only an intellectually lazy person would think this way.

If you don't want to be labeled a bigot, then don't say bigoted shit.

So wait, if for decades now its been proven by statistics that blacks commit the majority of gun crime in Toronto then please tell me why its wrong and bigoted to make a statement that blacks commit the most gun crime and crime in general in Toronto? How the hell can you say 'gun crime is not a racial problem' when probably 95-98% of gun crime involves blacks?? IE if you removed all the gun crime that involved blacks, there would be nearly zero gun crime in Toronto annually.

Guns are definately a problem in our city. But let's look back at the post I made last year. Conversation on this topic will flare up when a new incident comes up but the reality is that the total number of homicides in the city will be at or below the 10 year average by the end of the year.

The talk of racial minorities is fine watercooler conversation and certain communties have real problems, and yet (while I'm not suggesting a link) the murder rate is declining as the percentage of visible minorities in the city increases.

The reason why the murder rate is declining is because the majority of minorities that settle in Toronto each year are non-black. IE the people who simply want to work hard and better their lives rather than coming here to commit crime. Not saying many black immigrants aren't the same, but its also fact that a certain number of them that come here bring mostly trouble rather than anything positive to Canada and Toronto.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Max Sterling:

So wait, if for decades now its been proven by statistics that blacks commit the majority of gun crime in Toronto then please tell me why its wrong and bigoted to make a statement that blacks commit the most gun crime and crime in general in Toronto? How the hell can you say 'gun crime is not a racial problem' when probably 95-98% of gun crime involves blacks?? IE if you removed all the gun crime that involved blacks, there would be nearly zero gun crime in Toronto annually.

Because it is a meaningless statement? Others have already pointed out to you that blacks as a term encompasses everyone from first generation Caribbeans, those came direct from Africa and others who had multigenerational roots here in Canada. Calling it a "black" problem is lazy and tars the innocent just because the only commonality they share is the colour of their skin, as if it is sufficient to "cause" criminality. That's what's wrong and bigoted.

AoD

 

[Max Sterling]

Skin colour is probably a major factor I think. Black people are discriminated the same way, regardless of their actual background. When police engage in racial profiling for example, it doesn't matter if the victims are Jamaican or Kenyan, all that matters is that they are black. I think the historic and ongoing discrimination is the root cause for the problems we see in the black communities here, as it is with aboriginal communities elsewhere in Canada. Why were most of Robert Pickton's victims aboriginal women? Discrimination has a huge effect.

Sorry but that's BS. Plenty of people have been discriminated against over the years and you don't see them committing crime at the rates that blacks do. That's just a poor excuse to try and explain why many young black males behave the way that they do.

I don't know to what degree it is a factor but I would agree to a certain extent discrimination play's a part and the number one source of discrimination is our Police Force with their illegal "Carding program".

Is it any wonder so many turn to crime? What choice do they have if they cannot even get their first job?

If we treat someone from a very young age as a criminal by randomly stopping them on the streets and subjecting them to interrogation should we be surprised when they grow up to be criminals?

This is BS as well. If black males are being stopped more often than anyone else, its because they brought it upon themselves through years of high crime from their demographic. I'm not going to say all cops aren't racist or biased etc, but at the same time why aren't cops stopping all young males? Maybe because there's no reason to considering they've not shown to commit alot of crime?

Put it this way if young black males for the next 5-10 years committed much fewer murders and crime in general and police were still targeting them for special treatment then you'd have an argument. But you know and I know that this isn't going to happen anytime soon and that blacks males will continue to lead everyone else in committing crime by a large margin and so they deserve to be targeted and criticized until they change their behavior.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was trying to illustrate your point, that poverty is a key cause and not race. For example, Blacks make up the highest proportion of those in poverty, and they make up the highest proportion involved in violent crime. Those from India and South Asia make up the second largest block of poverty, and the second largest block in violent crime. Middle Easterners... etc.

Anyways, to people like Max who think it is a Black issue, take a look at the violent crime in Central and Western Canada. There it isn't a "Black" issue, it is a "Native" issue since they make up the highest proportion of those in poverty. What they have in common is that it is a POVERTY issue!

I disagree. Poverty isn't the main issue here, its upbringing and who you're surrounded with. You can be poor and peaceful and you can be wealthy and violent. Its in how you're raised mostly. In Toronto there are plenty of poor non-blacks in the city yet how often do you see them in the news because they murdered someone or they committed some other crime? Heck there are tons of non-blacks living in the same problem neighborhoods that blacks live in yet the only time you ever hear from them is when news reporters ask them for reaction to a crime that's happened in their neighborhood and hardly ever because they or their child has done something bad. I'm not saying poverty doesn't factor in, but its FAR from the main issue though.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Max, why the focus on blacks? The last shooting was Vietnamese. Besides, if you wanted define criminality by the most obvious human characteristics, why not just stop at gender? Eventually you can spread a net wide enough to encompass all of us.

Mod, my vote is to shut this down and remove Max. He/she has an unhealthy obsession on this topic. Just a few zingers below. When we start using "they" to negatively describe and characterize any racial groups instead of focusing on the individual this is racist and unfair.

"black males are being stopped more often than anyone else, its because they brought it upon themselves through years of high crime from their demographic."

"they deserve to be targeted and criticized until they change their behavior."

"just a poor excuse to try and explain why many young black males behave the way that they do."

I can't imagine speaking these words to my friends or colleagues of any origin.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Adm Beez:

they deserve to be targeted and criticized until they change their behavior

Thank you for bringing THAT to my attention. Well, behavioural change starts with a healthy respect for the rules afterall, and I can think of some rules that can be enforced for demonstrative purposes.

AoD

 

[Max Sterling]

Because it is a meaningless statement? Others have already pointed out to you that blacks as a term encompasses everyone from first generation Caribbeans, those came direct from Africa and others who had multigenerational roots here in Canada. Calling it a "black" problem is lazy and tars the innocent just because the only commonality they share is the colour of their skin, as if it is sufficient to "cause" criminality. That's what's wrong and bigoted.

There have been crime problems from blacks from nearly everywhere that come here, just that its higher with some groups of blacks than others. You can't say the same for asians for example. Whether they're Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Philippino, Vietnamese etc, the crime rates for them all have been EXTREMELY LOW across the board for decade after decade now. That's why no one thinks of asians as criminals here the way they do with many black males.

Asians in Toronto and Canada in general have had a track record of living in peace with everyone else with extremely little crime committed among them over the years. That's not to say they're crime free, but I think everyone would be over the moon if blacks committed crime at the same rates that asians do.

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't change the fact that young, black males regardless of where they came from are far and away the most violent segment of Toronto's population relative to everyone else. This is fact proven by years of murders and crime from them. Yes its unfortunate that the innocent are lumped in with them, but they brought it upon themselves.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You clearly haven't heard of triads and their involvement in racketeering, money laundering, illegal gambling, prostitution, drug trade, etc. Just because they don't engage in petty gun crime and are better at staying underground doesn't mean their involvement in crime is "low". In fact, I can argue that this type of crime is worse - organized, pervasive, systematically corrupting, etc.

AoD

 

[Max Sterling]

Max, why the focus on blacks? The last shooting was Vietnamese. Besides, if you wanted define criminality by the most obvious human characteristics, why not just stop at gender? Eventually you can spread a net wide enough to encompass all of us.

Mod, my vote is to shut this down and remove Max. He/she has an unhealthy obsession on this topic. Just a few zingers below. When we start using "they" to negatively describe and characterize any racial groups instead of focusing on the individual this is racist and unfair.

I can't imagine speaking these words to my friends or colleagues of any origin.

The focus is on blacks is because 3 months into 2013, half the murders victims in Toronto this year are black and most if not all of them were murdered by other blacks. Again I ask you think about this. 7% of Toronto's population is involved in HALF of the murders this year while the other 93% of non-blacks account for the other half. And again I ask, do you not see anything wrong with this??

If you believe there IS something wrong with that statistic then why WOULDN'T you focus on the group that has committed the most crime and murder by a HUGE MARGIN compared to anyone else? It would be stupid not to. That would be like knowing you're bad at calculus but you choose to ignore it and allow it to get worse rather than getting help and improving what you're weakest at. The same goes for here. If the criminals happen to be mostly young black males, then why wouldn't you raise the issue and discuss it openly and publicly?

It seems like you and others here believe mistakenly I'm focusing on blacks because of their skin color when in fact I'm focusing on blacks because of their BEHAVIOR. IE if it were whites or asians that were causing the trouble in Toronto, I would have no problem calling them out on it as well. But the fact is whites and asians DO NOT display the same behavior as many black males do and they don't commit anywhere near the amount of crime and murder that black males do. This is FACT.

Listen I know there are alot of decent black people living in Toronto and that's great, but at the same time the vast majority of crime comes from that same group and there's no denying it, so why can't you simply acknowledge this and deal with the problem instead of calling racism/bigotry all the time?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

*Sigh*. Just how will targeting "blacks", when we have already pointed out that it isn't a monolithic group deal with the issue?

Anyways, familarize yourself with the forum rules:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/7113-Urban-Toronto-Rules-Of-Conduct

Trolling
- No trolling, which is to say that a post or an ongoing series of posts of an antagonistic and disruptive nature, including borderline pathological attention to certain threads, which add little new perspective or information, and those which will only serve to needlessly and baselessly provoke a particular member or a group of members, are prohibited. An occasional harsh but fair comment would not be considered trolling.

This message won't be repeated again.

MoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Last warning.

 

[Max Sterling]

*Sigh*. Just how will targeting "blacks", when we have already pointed out that it isn't a monolithic group deal with the issue?

Anyways, familarize yourself with the forum rules:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/7113-Urban-Toronto-Rules-Of-Conduct

Trolling
- No trolling, which is to say that a post or an ongoing series of posts of an antagonistic and disruptive nature, including borderline pathological attention to certain threads, which add little new perspective or information, and those which will only serve to needlessly and baselessly provoke a particular member or a group of members, are prohibited. An occasional harsh but fair comment would not be considered trolling.

This message won't be repeated again.

MoD

Fine. I'll stop. But I don't feel I'm trolling though.