Move Toronto: The SOS Plan

[nfitz]

I read somewhere that this is their main option once again.

When they mused about the Finch - Don Mills LRT bypass, they considered an LRT station at the concourse level for better connection between Sheppard and Don Mills - Finch. But now the bypass seems to have waned, and then LRT station at subway tracks level makes more sense.

The project website - http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/background.htm is quite clear:

"The Sheppard Avenue East LRT is planned to enter a tunnel just west of Consumers Road, travel under Highway 404 and connect directly to the subway level at Don Mills Station. This would allow transferring customers to walk from the subway to the LRT along a single continuous platform without having to change levels."

They would have to amend the EA to go for something else, and have shown no indication of doing this. Given that Metrolinx seems to be trying to save money, and there's been no indication of an EA for the Finch to Don Mills LRT.

The most recent TTC presention I can find on the Sheppard East LRT is from only 12 weeks ago - http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2010-01-19_overview.pdf and also says "The Sheppard East LRT will connect underground at Don Mills Subway Station. Riders will walk across the platform between LRT and subway at the same level".

Simple answer. One platform, easy transfers.

 

[kEiThZ]

We'll see if they can get Metrolinx onboard with that one. I am fairly sure, he who pays, gets to say what gets built.

 

[nfitz]

We'll see if they can get Metrolinx onboard with that one. I am fairly sure, he who pays, gets to say what gets built.

The province accepted the EA to build the single platform at Don Mills long after Metrolinx had announced the Don Mills to Finch RT.

There's been no indication that the plans at Don Mills station will change.

 

[Ansem]

The pulse of the GTA

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tor...don-t-be-afraid-of-ford-says-campaign-manager


Do you support building more subway routes around the city?

Strongly support 66%
moderately support 28%
moderately oppose 4%
Strongly oppose 2%

Do you support a 5$ road toll to drive your car into downtown on roads like Gardiner Expressway and the DVP?

Strongly support 15%
moderately support 16%
moderately oppose 17%
Strongly oppose 51%


But 42% said they were more likely to support road tolls if money went to improving public transit like the TTC and GO

 

[Asterix]

Kind of silly asking the question pretty much out of context. I think in a perfect world almost everyone (including everyone on these threads) would support building more subway routes. It would be great if there were subways running along every major arterial, looping through every neighbourhood and providing one seat rides for almost every citizen.

But we unfortunately don't live in a perfect world with unlimited funds and so must make rational decisions on whether a subway here or there is really the best use of that limited amount of money versus other transit options.

Do you support building more subway routes around the city?

Strongly support 66%
moderately support 28%
moderately oppose 4%
Strongly oppose 2%


But 42% said they were more likely to support road tolls if money went to improving public transit like the TTC and GO

Which also presumably means that apparently the majority (58%) don't want road tolls even if the money went to improving public transit. (And I'd bet out of the 42% who would support the tolls, many would expect to see greater benefit than would be possible from the tolls that are collected. $100 - 200 million/yr, while a lot of money in tolls, isn't going to build all that much subway, let alone enough to have any noticeable impact on those paying the tolls.)

 

[Justin10000]

Fresh Start, I have no issue with SOS, and while I do not find their plan realistic, I do respect their passion, and would like them to to be heard. How does accusing the TTC of stealing money help that cause?

Anyways,

I do not like newspaper polls. 42% said they would support roads toll to fund transit. I guess we can assume 58% will not support road tolls to improve transit? Doesn't sound promising.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The current gasoline tax is supposed to pay for road construction and maintenance. However, it falls short. Roads are paid for from general revenue, including property taxes. In other words, the 416 property owners pays for the maintenance of the its expressways and parkways so that the 905 drivers can drive on them.

Road tolls would be like transit fares, but as the survey shows, it is not well liked. That means that gasoline taxes have to be raised to help pay for the roads, not just provincial roads, but local roads as well. A portion of gasoline taxes should also go to local municipalities to help maintain their roads. The HST on gasoline is one step to that direction.

Europe pays higher gasoline taxes than North America. The result is also a higher proportion using public transit as an alternative.

 

[ssiguy2]

Can Toronto put a gas tax by itself? Also what is the price of gas right now?

 

[gweed123]

Just to be clear, the reason why I started this thread again is because we were close to completing a new version of our plan, and we wanted broader input before we made it public. A lot of the criticisms that were made are valid, and we're discussing options on our group page now to see what changes can be made to the plan. Think of this as kind of a public consultation.

I particularly liked the idea of downgrading the Don Mills LRT to a BRT, as a) it would be cheaper, and b) would allow it to be integrated better with VIVA. Theoretically, once Presto is fully implemented, VIVA could run express down Don Mills to Science Centre station.

EDIT: Same goes with the Jane LRT, a downgrade to BRT may be warranted, as it would have lower operating costs as well as capital costs, as even in TC, the ridership projections barely justify LRT.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fresh Start, I have no issue with SOS, and while I do not find their plan realistic, I do respect their passion, and would like them to to be heard. How does accusing the TTC of stealing money help that cause?

Anyways,

I do not like newspaper polls. 42% said they would support roads toll to fund transit. I guess we can assume 58% will not support road tolls to improve transit? Doesn't sound promising.

Well there's no need to have issue with me either. I'm not SOS' official spokeperson or PR person and my level of contribution hasn't extended off of UT thus far; so no need to collude my positions on the issues with what the group's positions are. I just consider myself a BS detector and probably speak out before considering all possible angles of an issue. IMO, the issue is not with lack of funding, it is with overspending and bad budgeting at the City. If they cleaned up their act, stopped giving councillors so many perks and got rid of the waste, you could easily find more funding for transit, or at the very least lenders would be more willing to give. But that's neither here nor there.

The way I see it, road tolls are inevitable and it's about time motorists start to grin and bare it. Hopefully if the tolls are spent towards high calibre transit, more car-owners can make the switch.

 

[nfitz]

I particularly liked the idea of downgrading the Don Mills LRT to a BRT, as a) it would be cheaper, and b) would allow it to be integrated better with VIVA.

Downgrade one of the busier Transit City routes to BRT ... yet build two subway lines to Scarborough Centre?

I can't believe for one second, that YRT has any interest in running service south of Don Mills station ... what makes you think they might want to do this?

 

[gweed123]

Downgrade one of the busier Transit City routes to BRT ... yet build two subway lines to Scarborough Centre?

I can't believe for one second, that YRT has any interest in running service south of Don Mills station ... what makes you think they might want to do this?

The only reason why it'll be one of the busier TC routes is the section south of Eglinton. If that's replaced by the DRL, the ridership would drop dramatically. And I'm not saying they will, I'm just saying there's an option there.

 

[doady]

Odd, most of the critisms we've had is that we're too east-centric. I anticipated this kind of thing though, so I did some measurements with the Backbone Plan. We are propsing 28.3 km of subway west of Yonge in Phase I, compared to 26.6 km east of Yonge. With all due respect, that's about as even as you can get. If the extra Sheppard extension to STC is added into that, it's nearly dead even.

Maybe it is a bad comment on my part. East-west balance is irrelevant. After all I did suggest removing Eglinton East subway in favour of extension to East Mall (and a complete Sheppard).

Don Mills LRT as BRT is a good idea since it is temporary situation for future subway.

The reason why we included Mississauga's transit options into this is because of the strong link between Mississauga and Toronto transit. We also wanted to emphasize options to Square One. Also, the Dundas LRT is one of the big reasons for the B-D extension to Sherway. But you're right, if we included that, we should have included the 407 Transitway, as well as VIVA for that matter. We chose to include Mississauaga because it's that transit system that impacts Toronto the greatest. Also, the airport is in Mississauga, so we needed to address that as well.

I think the Mississauga Transitway and 407 Transitway are important to show, as the transitway connecting them would be entirely within the City of Toronto's borders using the Finch Hydro Corridor. But Hurontario/Main and Dundas LRTs I think should definitely be removed. Not because I don't support them, but because the SOS plan is strictly an alternative to Transit City, and so that is what you should focus on. The Mississauga/Brampton LRT plans do not have any relevance to Transit City so you should just ignore them.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I saw Councillor Raymond Cho on Saturday and he told me how disappointed he was that the Sheppard Subway is not being extended from Don Mills

 

[kEiThZ]

I saw Councillor Raymond Cho on Saturday and he told me how disappointed he was that the Sheppard Subway is not being extended from Don Mills

He is part of the problem. Had he not pushed for a Sheppard solution to run the length of the ward, we wouldn't have had this problem. He wanted the Sheppard subway to run till Meadowvale. That's just ridiculous.

Had he accepted some give and take we might have had more subway expansion. He could have easily accepted a subway extension till Agincourt in place of the SELRT.

Ditto for his approach on STC. It's because of his push for the SRT extension that we have no subway to STC. Why couldn't have just pushed for subway to STC and at-grade LRT or better bus service from STC to Malvern?

It is beyond me how the councillor labelled by the Toronto Star as the most incompetent in Toronto, keeps getting re-elected year after year and then gets say on transit decisions which have significant impacts well beyond his own ward.

I've met him more than a few times. And I have no love for the man. He just keeps coasting along. I wish he'd retire and let some new blood rise up.