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Move Toronto: The SOS Plan

saiho said:
I personally would like to see a LRT or even a subway (if we fell like there is money to burn) heading towards Kennedy and Steeles as there are 3 large Asian malls (namely P-mall, market village, and splendid china tower) and numerous plazas there. In about 4 years each mall will double in size totaling in over 1.5 million sq feet of mall. Plus 5 mins away another large Asian mall called the Landmark will be finished, effectively screwing the area with more traffic. For those who when to the area to shop already know traffic is already bad enough without doubling the size of each mall and adding a new one. plus there is also the really far future option of extending it to Markham downtown.
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Ever heard of Miliken GO Station? For far less than either LRT or subway expansion you can provide all-day (once an hour or better), bi-directional commuter-rail service which connects Steeles/Kennedy to directly to major UBCs quickly vs. via several dozen minor local stops en route.
 
nfitz said:
You have missed my point entirely ... my point was what will cost $275-million per kilometre if you start building now in 2010 dollars, will cost $350-million per kilometre in 2010 dollars if you start building in 2015 (i.e.$385-million in 2015 dollars). Assuming that the construction inflation index continues to run about 5% higher than the consumer price index (and CPI is at 2%). The extra $20-million that might be spent on a station is almost trivial compared to the above-inflation increases in the cost of stone, steel, and labour.
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Please take your negativity elsewhere. If we decide to fold our hands and never attempt to build anything because of way-off inflation - which can easily be recouped by government cutbacks from other spending programs - then nothing will ever get built. If you want to avoid inflation, you can advise the TTC on a couple of pointers: build things on a timely schedule. TransLink opened the RAV line several months ahead of the planned opening date and only went $30 million overbudget. Validate your estimate. Double-check your estimate for mistakes. If you used a spreadsheet, double-check the formulas. Check that you are using the right resource rates. Make sure your nonlabor costs are reasonably accurate.

Look for less costly alternatives. In this step, see if any of your initial assumptions can be changed to reduce costs. Look for process improvements. See if there are ways you can accomplish your objectives in a different way. For instance, can you gather business requirements in one day through a joint design session, rather than three weeks using traditional methods? Can you outsource part of the work at a lower cost than doing it in-house?

Negotiate a reduction in scope. The last option for reducing estimated costs is to make the project smaller. For instance, are there some less important capabilities that can be eliminated or deferred? Can you reduce the number of people or organizations within scope? Can some lower-tech but less expensive technologies be deployed instead of state-of-the-art technologies? You may be the type to bash how public transit works have been implemented over the last 25 years (i.e. piecemeal), but common sense indicates that incremental work is better than trying to build too much all at once which affects both fund allocation and project completion dates.

So, in light of the fact that inflation will affect everything (LRT construction costs included), that is not to be looked at as a valid justification as to not proactively pursue subway expansion.
 
Rainforest said:
In the present funding situation, I would dedicate remaining resources to two projects: Finch West LRT, and SLRT conversion / extension.

SLRT would get two branches: one to Malvern Centre, the other along Sheppard to Meadowvale. That would give access to the future Conlins Rd. yard and, hopefully, help Metrolinx retain the federal $300 million allocated for Sheppard.

Defer the rest of SELRT, and Eglinton. Then, create dedicated funding mechanisms for transit expansion. With those in place, resume expansion: DRL East subway first, then Eglinton, and then Sheppard.
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I must disagree with you. Why revamp SRT when that $1.2 billion could be spent towards extending the Bloor-Danforth to SCC instead? Kennedy Stn's already oriented east-to-west; so no hundreds of millions of dollars has to be spent on relocating the SRT terminus. It'd also open the door for an interline/split service to Kingston Rd via Eglinton East if the the platform area and tail tracks for it were to be constructed at the same time. SELRT won't be offset at this point so I wouldn 't focus too hard on trying to alter it. Demand right across Finch West will go down dramatically after the Finch West subway stop opens in 2015. We really cannot afford to spend $1.2B on a feeder line. Eglinton subway should at least get its foot in the door. Refusing to build anything at all along it til we find a windfall of money will petpetually make that corridor be prone to capture by inferior mode ideas. Rip off the bandage and at the very least build the stubway that was proposed and began construction during the 90s. At the same time the first steps towards a DRL can be put into place via building a double platform at Mount Dennis Stn and offshooting tail-tracks adjacent to the Weston-Galt Sub. So to recap:

950 million - SELRT
1.8 billion - Eglinton subway (Allen, Oakwood, Dufferin, Caledonia, Westside*, Trethewey, Mt Dennis)
1.45 billion - Blood-Danforth (Brimley-Eglinton, McCowan-Lawrence, SCC)
---
= 4.2 billion
 
Fresh Start said:
Ever heard of Miliken GO Station? For far less than either LRT or subway expansion you can provide all-day (once an hour or better), bi-directional commuter-rail service which connects Steeles/Kennedy to directly to major UBCs quickly vs. via several dozen minor local stops en route.
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If you've been on the road, you might be able to see a huge avenue possibility. Of course better Go service will be great, but Kennedy would be my BRT/LRT link up Northern Scarborough and Markham.

And anyways, a Sheppard Subway would still help immensely if it was a regional rail link connector as well.
 
Fresh Start said:
950 million - SELRT
1.8 billion - Eglinton subway (Allen, Oakwood, Dufferin, Caledonia, Westside*, Trethewey, Mt Dennis)
1.45 billion - Blood-Danforth (Brimley-Eglinton, McCowan-Lawrence, SCC)
---
= 4.2 billion
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As a mini phase 1, I would certainly agree with you. However, your proposal does truncate the Sheppard subway at Don Mills.
 
Fresh Start said:
Ever heard of Miliken GO Station? For far less than either LRT or subway expansion you can provide all-day (once an hour or better), bi-directional commuter-rail service which connects Steeles/Kennedy to directly to major UBCs quickly vs. via several dozen minor local stops en route.
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yes i have, but do you seriously think a commuter train which is NOT intergrated into local transit running at 1-2 TPH is going to replace large amounts of cars heading to P-mall. Heck it dosen't even service locations where many of P-mall's main general cilentle lives which is east and west of that mall, not downtown.If we are going to do it, mind as well make it a commuter metro that is intergrated with local transit and give it the "asian feeling of going to the mall" that will get them.
 
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If we're more concerned with what our subway map looks like instead of how easy it is to get around the city then we will be headed for more mediocrity.

My comments regarding the plan:

I'm not sure why there is a Sheppard LRT running out from Agincourt. There isn't much density along that corridor and I think the development potential is relatively low. Why did eliminate the SRT extension route to Malvern? Markham/Sheppard has some density, and most of the route is on an existing ROW. I think its a better way to get to Malvern than the Morningside alignment. A lot of current SRT ridership comes from Malvern, but you haven't connected it to Scarborough Centre.

Was there any consideration given to alternative means of transit? Specifically expansion of GO service, train-trams, more downtown streetcar ROWs, etc. I honestly don't know but I wonder if some of those might be more beneficial for the system as a whole, assuming there is a finite pot of money from which to draw.

I also think a case can be made for keeping Eglinton as LRT technology. If fully grade separated (either to start with, or eventually) it will be just as fast and reliable as a subway, but with the added opportunity to run the Jane and Don Mills LRTs through the central section. If the Mississauga busway was ever upgraded to LRT it could also use Eglinton, making it a spine for suburban LRT routes.
 
Fresh Start said:
Please take your negativity elsewhere.
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Simple facts are negativity? Surely decisions on transit expansion should be based on reality, and not hiding real costs so the project gets approved (I know that's how Montreal works ... but is that ethical?

If SOS's position is that simply discussing the numbers openly is negativity, then this say a lot about the ethics and transparency of this group!!!
 
gweed123 said:
The reason why we chose to not extend the LRT north of Sheppard is because that would involve going to Finch station. And unless the Finch LRT is going the entire way down Finch, running an LRT along part of it may screw with the Finch East bus, one of the most profitable and best run routes in the city. I suppose that downgrading Don Mills to a BRT could be doable though. The ridership probably could justify it. Our biggest fear was that our first plan was seen as 'bashing LRT' too much, in that it wasn't implemented anywhere. By keeping some aspects of Transit City, hopefully it's seen that we're not completely dismissing it, rather just building upon it.
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The Don Mills LRT does not have to go west to Finch Station. It can keep going north to Steeles and beyond in York Region. York has been planning a Don Mills/Leslie LRT from Steeles to Highway 7 (and to Major Mac later on) as an extension of TC's Don Mills LRT.
 
gweed123 said:
As a mini phase 1, I would certainly agree with you. However, your proposal does truncate the Sheppard subway at Don Mills.
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Perhaps this should be proposed by SOS as Phase 1. And if the B-D line ran up to SCC, there would be at least some reduction in pressure on Don Mills. A better entrance/exit ramp(s) for buses into Don Mills station would also accomplish a lot.
 
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