Move Toronto: The SOS Plan

[Ansem]

Perhaps this should be proposed by SOS as Phase 1. And if the B-D line ran up to SCC, there would be at least some reduction in pressure on Don Mills. A better entrance/exit ramp(s) for buses into Don Mills station would also accomplish a lot.

To me, DRL Sheppard to STC and B-D to STC is easier to sell to both the population and the media.
If you have both the media and population support, it force the hand of politicians that are eager to get elected...

A candidate proposing this gets North York and Scarborough's votes on a silver plater...

Lastman won because the suburb actually went out to vote. Sheppard and B-D to STC would get the suburbs to vote

 

[gweed123]

If we're more concerned with what our subway map looks like instead of how easy it is to get around the city then we will be headed for more mediocrity.

My comments regarding the plan:

I'm not sure why there is a Sheppard LRT running out from Agincourt. There isn't much density along that corridor and I think the development potential is relatively low. Why did eliminate the SRT extension route to Malvern? Markham/Sheppard has some density, and most of the route is on an existing ROW. I think its a better way to get to Malvern than the Morningside alignment. A lot of current SRT ridership comes from Malvern, but you haven't connected it to Scarborough Centre..

We kept the SELRT because that portion of the SELRT project is already tendered out. It would be near unfeasible to stop it now. Yes, it's a terrible project, but it's a project already underway on the eastern half of it. The current SRT alignment made sense if it was going to use ICTS as originally planned (ie grade-separated). But at-grade LRT along that corridor makes little sense. The reason why we chose the NEILSON alignment is because that way we can combine a BRT and LRT route into Malvern. The corridor is already being built, so it costs nothing extra capitally to run both in the same corridor. BRT to STC, LRT to Agincourt via Sheppard.

Was there any consideration given to alternative means of transit? Specifically expansion of GO service, train-trams, more downtown streetcar ROWs, etc. I honestly don't know but I wonder if some of those might be more beneficial for the system as a whole, assuming there is a finite pot of money from which to draw. .

A lot of this plan is based on the assumption of increased GO service. With the exception of the DRL West (which I think would work well as an express-local combo with the Georgetown GO), we tried to avoid overlapping corridors. Naturally we hope that GO, especially the Lakeshore line, gets electrified ASAP.

I also think a case can be made for keeping Eglinton as LRT technology. If fully grade separated (either to start with, or eventually) it will be just as fast and reliable as a subway, but with the added opportunity to run the Jane and Don Mills LRTs through the central section. If the Mississauga busway was ever upgraded to LRT it could also use Eglinton, making it a spine for suburban LRT routes.

I think a bigger priority is interlining possibilities with the DRL. Having a 1 seat ride from downtown to Pearson via subway could be a huge asset. You could also create a loop with the DRL and the central portion of Eglinton. The potential with that I think is far greater than interlining with Jane or Don Mills. People want to go downtown, and having a 1 seat ride by subway could make taking transit even more attractive.

 

[gweed123]

The Don Mills LRT does not have to go west to Finch Station. It can keep going north to Steeles and beyond in York Region. York has been planning a Don Mills/Leslie LRT from Steeles to Highway 7 (and to Major Mac later on) as an extension of TC's Don Mills LRT.

Then I would be inclined to include that portion of the Don Mills line in with VIVA plans as opposed to City of Toronto plans. Ending the line randomly at Finch or Steeles would create an awkward 'Allen-esque' stop at what's realistically an arbitrary point. It's not like Don Mills and Steeles is a major destination that would make sense as a terminus. Ideally you would want to end a line at either a hub, a node, or another major intersecting transit line.

 

[Dan416]

I'm of two minds on our truncated SELRT. I know why we kept it. But I would not bat an eyelash if it disappeared from our plan entirely. Same goes for the Jane LRT. That's on our plan? LOL. Maybe we should just move up Sheppard East to STC?

 

[Fresh Start]

If you've been on the road, you might be able to see a huge avenue possibility. Of course better Go service will be great, but Kennedy would be my BRT/LRT link up Northern Scarborough and Markham.

And anyways, a Sheppard Subway would still help immensely if it was a regional rail link connector as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think Steeles would do fine with articulated BRT as would all the Blue Night bus routes. With that in place I'd have more incentive to visiti that neck of the woods. And it would integrate seamlessly with the GO Station. But for now, why let the GO line go to waste when its only a 500 metre walk from the station to the nearest Pacific Mall entrance? I don't predict a majority of mall patrons would be using the Sheppard Line to get there if that will involve having to transfer onto a local bus to head almost 5 kilometres to the north. Putting political pressure on GO Transit to improve its pricing and route frequency is a more realistic solution for now since subway/LRT construction would still take multiple years to finish with no guaranteed funding in sight.

 

[gweed123]

I'm of two minds on our truncated SELRT. I know why we kept it. But I would not bat an eyelash if it disappeared from our plan entirely. Same goes for the Jane LRT. That's on our plan? LOL. Maybe we should just move up Sheppard East to STC?

I'm thinking the same thing. The main reason we kept them in there is because of the apparent anti-LRT backlash we had after our first plan. If Jane was downgraded to a BRT, I wouldn't really mind.

 

[Dan416]

If we get rid of SELRT and downgrade Jane from LRT to BRT will that be enough money to finish Sheppard?

And I agree with scarberian about not switching modes on Don Mills. Leave it BRT until it can be upgraded to subway. I don't know how much additional it would cost to have the DRL continue up to Sheppard, but it'd be worth investigating.

 

[Fresh Start]

As a mini phase 1, I would certainly agree with you. However, your proposal does truncate the Sheppard subway at Don Mills.

Well, I'm trying be pragmatic and realistic about this. SELRT in all likelihood cannot be stopped. It, along with SRT revamp and TYSSE are Pan Am Games priority lines which it make it an uphill battle to convince TPTB to cancel or even alter these projects in any significant way. SELRT will be completed by 2013, so that gives us less than 3 years to find an influential politican that's pro-subway and who can convince the Prov./Feds to defer payments from SELRT to commence subway expansion. Considering the way the TTC operates, that $950 million would get us a subway no further east than Warden Avenue. Meanwhile service east of that point would get no improvements. I don't count on the TTC building dedicated bus lanes if I'm gauging the hostility towards BRT correctly based on my experiences here. So baring all that in mind, I'm willing to sacrifice the Sheppard corridor for now. It's a billion dollar mistake which I think will cost Toronto for generations to come, but I'd rather focus my energies now on saving Eglinton crosstown from the same ruination. Hopefully the TTC reconsiders its terminus design at Don Mills to make the LRT platform vis a vis with the subway's to at least minimize the affects of transferring. I'd also hope long-term that if the LRT is there to stay that they'll consider an interline branch that runs down the Uxbridge Sub to link up with the SRT guideway into SCC. That way at least some semblance of the NYCC-SCC higher-order transit link is retained.

But without Sheppard in the picture, this places extra emphasis on extending B-D to Scarborough Centre. 2 lines aren't needed here immediately but one more than certainly can be added. And the intermediates would be very well used considering half the routes that feed into Kennedy Stn today could terminate at Brimley. To build a 2 storey platform area, including a set for the future Eglinton subway connection sets the stage for ongoing subway expansion. Montreal itself has done this, both at the Lionel-Groulx interchange stn and at Snowdon which by the mere existence of the infrastructure makes it easier for STM to one day extend the Blue Line into Montreal West. Likewise in the west end, building the first phase of Eglinton subway gives us the opportunity to build a complex interchange stn at Mount Dennis while it's still relatively affordable to do so; which can lead to fasttracking the DRL to be completed within the next 25 years.

 

[Fresh Start]

why is it unrealistic?

That's why this city as a mediocre subway map, people settle for mediocrity.

And here I thought it was because Toronto entered the subway game late.

 

[Fresh Start]

I definitely see parallels here with the TTC regarding transparency. lol

Right, like the frauds that promised constituents 120 kilometres of LRT at $6 million per kilometre were being transparent. This may come as a shock, but subway construction is nowhere as complicated or costly as the TTC makes it out to be. I personally think they're skimming off the top and need to be audited. That SOS is relying on their estimates as the basis for our's is almost comical given what Vancouver was able to pull off with a far more conscientious budget.

 

[Dan416]

Well, I'm trying be pragmatic and realistic about this. SELRT in all likelihood cannot be stopped. It, along with SRT revamp and TYSSE are Pan Am Games priority lines which it make it an uphill battle to convince TPTB to cancel or even alter these projects in any significant way. SELRT will be completed by 2013, so that gives us less than 3 years to find an influential politican that's pro-subway and who can convince the Prov./Feds to defer payments from SELRT to commence subway expansion. Considering the way the TTC operates, that $950 million would get us a subway no further east than Warden Avenue. Meanwhile service east of that point would get no improvements. I don't count on the TTC building dedicated bus lanes if I'm gauging the hostility towards BRT correctly based on my experiences here. So baring all that in mind, I'm willing to sacrifice the Sheppard corridor for now. It's a billion dollar mistake which I think will cost Toronto for generations to come, but I'd rather focus my energies now on saving Eglinton crosstown from the same ruination. Hopefully the TTC reconsiders its terminus design at Don Mills to make the LRT platform vis a vis with the subway's to at least minimize the affects of transferring. I'd also hope long-term that if the LRT is there to stay that they'll consider an interline branch that runs down the Uxbridge Sub to link up with the SRT guideway into SCC. That way at least some semblance of the NYCC-SCC higher-order transit link is retained.

But without Sheppard in the picture, this places extra emphasis on extending B-D to Scarborough Centre. 2 lines aren't needed here immediately but one more than certainly can be added. And the intermediates would be very well used considering half the routes that feed into Kennedy Stn today could terminate at Brimley. To build a 2 storey platform area, including a set for the future Eglinton subway connection sets the stage for ongoing subway expansion. Montreal itself has done this, both at the Lionel-Groulx interchange stn and at Snowdon which by the mere existence of the infrastructure makes it easier for STM to one day extend the Blue Line into Montreal West. Likewise in the west end, building the first phase of Eglinton subway gives us the opportunity to build a complex interchange stn at Mount Dennis while it's still relatively affordable to do so; which can lead to fasttracking the DRL to be completed within the next 25 years.

With all due respect, I think we should be fighting as hard as possible to prevent a billion dollar mistake like the SELRT.

 

[Fresh Start]

If we get rid of SELRT and downgrade Jane from LRT to BRT will that be enough money to finish Sheppard?

And I agree with scarberian about not switching modes on Don Mills. Leave it BRT until it can be upgraded to subway. I don't know how much additional it would cost to have the DRL continue up to Sheppard, but it'd be worth investigating.

Best of luck if you guys feel that SELRT can be stopped or truncated at this stage in the game. I just don't want the rest of the SOS plan to be put at jeopardy by lobbying too earnestly for something that may never be.

I would recommend BRT for both Jane and Don Mills. If two lanes are good enough for LRT in a queue, it can work for BRT... and at half the expense.

 

[gweed123]

New options to be discussed, posted on the group page. SOS members please check it.

 

[Justin10000]

Right, like the frauds that promised constituents 120 kilometres of LRT at $6 million per kilometre were being transparent. This may come as a shock, but subway construction is nowhere as complicated or costly as the TTC makes it out to be. I personally think they're skimming off the top and need to be audited. That SOS is relying on their estimates as the basis for our's is almost comical given what Vancouver was able to pull off with a far more conscientious budget.

If I was a member of SOS, I would distance myself from you, and your comments.

 

[Rainforest]

Hopefully the TTC reconsiders its terminus design at Don Mills to make the LRT platform vis a vis with the subway's to at least minimize the affects of transferring.

I read somewhere that this is their main option once again.

When they mused about the Finch - Don Mills LRT bypass, they considered an LRT station at the concourse level for better connection between Sheppard and Don Mills - Finch. But now the bypass seems to have waned, and then LRT station at subway tracks level makes more sense.

... I'd rather focus my energies now on saving Eglinton crosstown from the same ruination.

In this shaky funding situation, my concern regarding Eglinton - and it applies to either subway or LRT - is that a portion of the route is built but it is never extended, so we end up with one more stubway.

I wonder if it is smarter to defer Eglinton until the dedicated stream of funding is created, if funding for the whole line cannot be guaranteed at this point.