Move Ontario - 1.2 Billion for Transit

[cdl42]

Let’s construct a hypothetical comparison…

You live in MCC and are heading to Queen and Bay in downtown Toronto. Either Osgoode or Queen station will do.

TTC Subway Extension

You walk to the subway station to catch the train. You don’t know when the next train is going to depart because service is frequent, but due to moderately low ridership in off-peak and crowding down the line in peak periods every 3rd train gets turned back at Kipling. Headways are every 4-5 minutes during peak hours and every 7-8 minutes off-peak.

Waiting time at station for train departure: 1 - 8 minutes.

This train pulls in to the station:

This station is the end of the line, so you board an empty train and grab a seat. What follows is 26-stop epic journey taking 49 - 52 minutes, including a transfer at St. George.

In Mississauga, following the TTC’s plans (as shown in the RTES report) the train stops at:
- A station at Central Parkway and Hurontario
The line curves east and runs along the Milton GO line.
- A station at Dundas and Cawthra
- Dixie GO station

Travel time: 50 - 60 minutes
Fare: $2.10 TTC + $2.10 MT = $4.20

GO Line diversion and upgrade

You walk to the underground train station to catch the train. The train runs every 15 minutes, but since you know the schedule you know when to leave in order to arrive 3 minutes before train departure (just to be safe). During rush hours service averages every 12 minutes, but runs as frequently as every 10 minutes. Service is tailored to demand because there aren’t capacity requirements further down the line.

Waiting time at station for train departure: 3 minutes.

A train like this pulls in to the station:

This isn’t the end of the line, the train has come from stations in Meadowvale and Streetsville, (rerouted along the 403 hydro corridor and into the MCC tunnel) so when the doors open a number of passengers get off the train, after riding from their homes in Meadowvale to jobs and shopping in MCC, and MCC residents returning from their jobs in the Meadowvale business parks. You board and grab a seat. What follows is a 5-stop journey taking 15 minutes running down new and shared tracks along the CP Milton corridor. The ride is smooth due to the fewer number of stops.

In Mississauga, the train stops at:
- A new, underground Cooksville GO station
The line curves east and runs along the Milton GO line.
- Dixie GO station

You leave the train at Union, take a one minute walk to the subway station. You don’t have to pay another fare thanks to the GTTA’s integrated fares. You wait 1-4 minutes for a subway train and take a 3-minute journey to Queen station.

Travel time: 22 - 25 minutes
Hypothetical fare: $4.05 GO + $0.50 GTTA transfer = $4.55


Which would you rather ride?


Now, let’s compare costs:

TTC Subway Extension

Length of subway tunnel: 11km + 6 underground stations
Approx construction costs: @ 200mil per km = $2.2 billion
Operating costs: number of trains operated per 18 hour day: 179

GO Line diversion and upgrade

Length of subway tunnel: 3.2km + 1 underground station
Approx construction costs: @ 200mil per km = $640 million + line upgrades
Operating costs: number of trains operated per 18 hour day: 68

What GO currently operates is known as "commuter rail". What I am proposing is known by the term "suburban rail". That's because it's the mode that makes the most sense for travellers in suburban locations, like Mississauga. You don't even have to go to Europe to see this, New York will do.


EDITS: Proofread and add some more points.

 

[drum118]

Putting GO into MCC is a waste of money and does not address where riders want to go in the first place. Also, offer no real use for land use in the first place.

If the subway ran along Dundas and up Hurontario, Dundas would go under redevelopment as there much protental for new higher density there now and this would kick start it.

Until GO fare's are for all class's, it an upper means of travell.

 

[Mike in TO]

^ (edit - my up arrow refers to Borgos comments)Unfortunately the province is also in a fiscal crunch - at least this government has acknowledged the fiscal imbalance and has expressed a willingness to work with the city to achieve both short term and long-term solutions with the current resources at its disposal.

A number of industry representatives in the infrastructure sector have stated that this budget included the largest infussion of funding for transportation infrastructure since the 1970s. I don't understand how this can be shugged off as nothing to rejoice, especially considering that most people on this board are urban enthusiats.

MPIR has expressed that this is only a start and as the provincial fiscal situation improves there will continue to be major investments made towards infrastructure.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Probably, but GO would still be an expensive rush hour M-F downtown commuter-focused service. Mississauga would still need its own rapid transit, the GTTA, fare integration and a much more frequent schedule for the rest of the city to be reasonably accessible.

it's already been mentioned that MCC is 23 km from downtown. it should be a more expensive ride than a standard local transit fare. with a greater toronto transit authority and smart cards, we'll probably see fare integration - but with that will come zoned fares. so SCC and NYCC will probably get more expensive to get to, and riding within a few km of downtown will get cheaper. at least that's what would make sense.

 

[Mike in TO]

I have no idea why Miller is so happy. This new subway line will be a Trojan horse bringing with it decades of operating expenses which will be borne by the taxpayers of Toronto and principally benefitting residents of York region. If the budget had addressed Toronto's long term budget issues like downloading, I could live with it. But the budget said nothing about the isse. SD, if you live in Toronto, there's no reason to rejoice.

Borgos - there are plenty of reason to rejoice. You said....

If the budget had addressed Toronto's long term budget issues like downloading, I could live with it. But the budget said nothing about the isse.

For your benifit this is what the budget included for Toronto:

-the budget noted that the City of Toronto Act has received first reading, the target for implementation in January 1, 2007.

-$200 million one-time transit investment the the city will be able to use to support TTC subway operations (I'll say that again $200 million cash bail out for Toronto)

-$1 million through Move Ontario towards an EA relating to the future of the Scarborough Subway (MPIR has expressed an interest in the project and Minister Caplan has stated that after the York extention he wants to maintain an ongoing program to expand the subway system - this is laying the seeds for the next expansion)

-$130.4 million is gas tax funds in 2006 for Toronto($40 million more than 2005). The program has been changed to allow support for transit operations, as well as capital expendtures

-$10.4 million in increased land ambulance funding (The province also provided structural adjustments for land ambulance funding for all other Ontario municipalities)

-$35 million through a new enhancement to the Ontario Municipal Partnership Fund that addresses high municipal social program costs relative to residents' household incomes

Taken together, these measures provide Toronto with multi-year funding to significantly address its budget pressures until a long-term solution to the fiscal imbalance with the federal government is reached.

On top of that Toronto will no doubt benefit from the $838 million provided though Move Ontario for priority transit projects in the GTA.

But alas, there is no reason to rejoice - we obviously got screwed - please bring back Mike Harris.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Probably, but GO would still be an expensive rush hour M-F downtown commuter-focused service. Mississauga would still need its own rapid transit, the GTTA, fare integration and a much more frequent schedule for the rest of the city to be reasonably accessible."

I don't see why it can't be both-way, all-day service...it better be if you need to tunnel part of it. By that time, I'd assume fares would be integrated somehow as well (maybe Mississauga will even be amalgamated...). Mississauga can still build whatever it wants along Hurontario, Eglinton, etc. If some sort of non-RT light rail is run along Eglinton from Hurontario to the airport, we could just continue it on to Eglinton West, down to Kipling, and up to Rexdale, even over to York U.

 

[borgos]

Mike, that's a drop in the bucket. City estimates are that downloading costs the city $700 million a year. Miller didn't get his long-term committment that he was looking for, just some hints that that may happen depending upon the solution to the prov-fed fiscal imbalance. We'll see. Both Ducharme and Moscoe have placed the Vaughan line near the bottom of TTC priorities.

 

[ahrvojic]

cdl42: thank you Not sure I'm entirely convinced, but interesting. And I didn't mean to imply that a flat fare would make sense for a GTA-integrated system.

We say that we want to make a city that's as transit-oriented as those in Europe, but yet we're unwilling to look at what they use in Europe in order to accomplish those goals.

This is very true. We only seem to be interested in what the US does.

 

[ahrvojic]

If the subway ran along Dundas and up Hurontario, Dundas would go under redevelopment as there much protental for new higher density there now and this would kick start it.

Agreed. It's not just about commuting downtown.

 

[TdotTrickyRicky]

Just a few points from me:

-If you are running a transit system and are offered money to build a subway line or extension, even if this extension is low on your priority list, you take it if you care anything about the region beyond day-to-day bean counting. The political stars align to release money for infrastructure once in a blue moon.

-Outside the old city of Toronto there virtually does not exist any pockets of population densities large enough to justify a comprehensive transit system. But just because most of Toronto and virtually all of the 905 is low-density sprawl this does not mean we should hold off building strong transit corridors for the future. Transit takes generations to build and Toronto 50 years from now will be an incredibly different place. I have read and heard countless comments either criticising the prioritization of the spadina line or lamenting that the money was not spent in another jurisdiction. To all those I say think of the future and remember that once this line is built there is one less obstacle in the way of major investment coming to your favourite project.

 

[Mike in TO]

Mike, that's a drop in the bucket. City estimates are that downloading costs the city $700 million a year.

Borgos, how it what I just listed a drop in the bucket?

You said according to City estimates they've been shortchanges $700 million (I wonder what the provincial estimate would be - just to be fair)

The items I listed from this budget add up to over $375 million in assistance this year - that doesn't include any other structural changes since the Liberals came into power in 2003 or any of the additional revenues powers Toronto may be able to tap into in 2007.

Plus the $838 million in capital funding for GTA transit.

Even by your negative estimates - $375+ million towards a $700 million dowloading cost is 54% which isn't "a drop in the bucket" - especially considering the capital funding.

 

[drum118]

Cost using TTC and MT if using a weekly pass for MT and Tokens for TTC is $4.20 per trip.

Cost of doing the same thing by GO, assuming you are not going to the core is $8.25 using transit.

If you drive to the GO station, it will be less depending on your driving distance and not going to the core.

If you are going to the core of the city, than it is $4.05 plus $1.00 if you have your GO day pass to uses on MT to get to/from GO station. If not, then the cost of your MT fare.

If you drive, then it is the cost of using your car as well the $4.05.

Compare apple to apples as to cost and time when comparing GO to local transit.

I can make it to Union by local transit in 73 minutes while it takes me 68 minutes by GO and MT plus the 5 or more minutes trying to get off the train and down to street.

I also use MT weekly pass. So any saving using the $.50 GO fare is lost.

As it was stated before about getting to Yonge and Davisville is about the same traveling time, but I don't know if traveling time was used to get from MCC to GO station in the first place.

You got to include all traveling and waiting time for trips as well cost to see what the true cost of traveling is.

Don't forget, there are riders who cannot afford to use GO in the first place due to their income in the first place and that is why they take the local transit in the first place.

If I want to go to STC from MCC station to station, it will cost me $4.20 each way for local transit as while 100 minutes of traveling time. To use GO, it is 70 minutes depending on the time of day as well if service is running. It cost $13.60 plus $2.20 for MT pass to do around trip. That is $7.40 more than local transit as well 30 minutes short in traveling time. It will take me longer traveling wise to get to MCC than it is go to Islington station in the first place.

To some, "so what it cost me $7.40 more", but to other it does especially if there is more than one family member traveling with them.

I know it takes me 30 minutes with a cost of $5.95 for GO each way to get to York U from MCC plus 20 minutes traveling time to MCC by MT, while it takes me 85 minutes by local transit at a cost of $4.20 from where I live. That works out to be $82.25 a week using MT weekly pass for round trips as well 500 minutes (8.33 hrs) of traveling time for GO. For local transit it cost $42.50 along with 850 (14.01 hrs) minutes of traveling time.

Now is paying $19.75 more for travel cost or spending 5.83 hr more in traveling time per week? 30 weeks works out to be $587.40 and 152.29 hrs.

Now what about when the subway opens where you will either have to pay an extra fare to go one station from the new GO station or walk to the campus that will add about 10-15 minutes more in traveling time vs. the local transit that will see a decrease in traveling time about 10 minutes or less, what would the better way be?

Time and money do count when comparing modes of travel and before going off saying this is the way to go, compare apples to apples not apples to oranges.

Taking the subway extension up to VCC makes more sense as it would be the hub for York Region as well the 905 area especially sipping off traffic from the 400 hwy. By doing so,

I would the support the plan extension 100% if the VCC extension is done at the same time. The VCC extension can proceed at the same time as the plan extension even though there is no EA in place for it at this time. If York Region gets their EA going this year, it would be approved before construction starts on the plan one. Otherwise, I opposed the plan extension and push for an LRT line.

 

[ahrvojic]

As it was stated before about getting to Yonge and Davisville is about the same traveling time, but I don't know if traveling time was used to get from MCC to GO station in the first place.

Ah, sorry about that. My commute in a bit more detail (heh, I hope this is at least somewhat interesting):

GO (Cooksville to Union), TTC (Union to Davisville)

- ~10 min brisk walk down Hurontario to Cooksville station (I'm lucky)
- ~5 min wait for GO train
- ~27 min to Union
- ~8 min transfer through Union plus wait time for subway
- ~15 min to Davisville

~65 min total

(NB: GO frequency is every 20 min during rush hour and the first two points are during that interval)

Cost: Monthly GO pass $135/mo (soon to go up by $10?) + min 10 tokens/week, less than ~$87/mo (this will increase a bit too) = ~$220/mo.


MT (southeast MCC to Islington), TTC (Islington to Davisville)

- Stop pretty much at my door (I'm lucky again)
- ~35 min to Islington
- ~30 min to Davisville including transfer

~65 min total

(NB: MT frequency in the morning at my stop is--I think--roughly 5-7 min and I haven't done this often enough to really know the whole trip on average)

Cost: GTA Weekly Pass $41.25/wk (soon to go up too?) = less than ~$180/mo (I'm going to try this starting in April).

So unless I'm missing something obvious or made a mistake, for me, the GO is technically faster, but that time seems to be eaten up by train frequency/getting to the station. Note the cost, plus that GTA Weekly is unlimited and good for weekends as well

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ 30 minutes from Islington to Davisville including waiting for both trains seems unfair when you're including the 5 minute wait for the GO train and a seemingly long 8 minute walk + wait at Union. Which route is more reliable? Does one vary wildly more than the other?

 

[disparishun]

Look at those as a gigantic opportunity to fix a couple of the biggest blights that scar the GTA and impede Toronto's growth -- York U and Vaughan.

York U's urban vision is laughable; in last year's scandal they approved suburban housing, for crying out loud. That campus could easily become an urban core for a whole new part of Toronto -- draw a 10 km radius around the York campus, and imagine real urban planning. Vaughan is even worse: they honestly seem to just not get it, and keep on building tract housing, one subdivision after another, at a time when people would literally buy any housing thrown up there.

Imagine high density and mixed student-artist-professional housing on the York campus and everything else that a university environment could dream up. Weekly Indian and Italian movie nights at the new Accolade centre. And everything else that would help that part of the city come into its own as part of a polycentric Toronto. That goes double for Vaughan: what, if they dared rezone the tract suburbs to allow higher-density projects and even, horrors, corner stores folks could walk to, would people really move to Brampton?

So this is a major opportunity for some serious pressure. Start demanding their persons-per-km2 density plans. Have journalists start scouring what actually happens at the York U Devcorp, City of Vaughan, and so on -- one of the problems being that there is literally no media that covers Vaughan's municipal decisions. In short, shine a light and bring pressure to bear. You want millions? A subway? Well, show us your plans. And SHOW US THE DENSITY.