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Metrolinx strategy for funding and building Transit City and Viva

Getting the Eglinton line and the Sheppard LRT built will (a) overload the Yonge line, (b) increase the utilization of the existing portion of the Sheppard subway, and (c) leaves the SRT and the area between the Yonge and University lines around Sheppard untouched so more intelligent plans can have a chance of coming to light. All of these mean a brighter future for transit in Toronto because (a) an overloaded Yonge will ensure the DRL gets funding in around 2020, (b) the increased utilization of the existing Sheppard subway might increase the business case for its extension, and (c) the SRT and Sheppard West bus between Downsview and Yonge will be in serious need of a solution which will be hard to ignore because the SRT will be falling apart and have capacity issues spread onto the parallel rocket services and Sheppard West bus will see ridership growth due to people making their way to the University line to head north on the extension. It may not be intelligent planning allowing things to overload and approach falling apart, but it is hard to ignore the fact it forces higher priorities on future transit spending in a way a "cancel Transit City" option would not. Building more transit, especially transit without significant excess capacity, could create a bit of a snowball effect. I'm hoping it could lead to the SRT being switched to subway (there will also be an Eglinton line dumping people at Kennedy), and that the connection between Finch West LRT and Sheppard line will not involve transfer on and off the Yonge subway nor a trip to Don Mills.
 
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nfitz said:
With the 3 levels of government agreeing to Sheppard east, it would be very difficult to stop either this, or the Spadina subway extension. Unlike the 100% Ontario government-funded lines.

Of course nothing is impossible ... but very, very unlikely.
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Ottawa did it. They paid something in the neighbourhood of $30 million to do it, but they did it. The plan was in the same dollar range as SELRT is too. I'd rather spend $30 million backtracking than $950 million on a mistake. That $920 million can be spent in much better places.
 
gweed123 said:
Ottawa did it. They paid something in the neighbourhood of $30 million to do it, but they did it. The plan was in the same dollar range as SELRT is too. I'd rather spend $30 million backtracking than $950 million on a mistake. That $920 million can be spent in much better places.
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It was a fair bit more than that. The settlement with Siemens was 36 million, but the city itself had spent another 60 million on prep work for the project. The city also gave up about $400 million that was promised by the federal and provincial governments. The province has agreed to fund the new plan, but that federal money has yet to rematerialize.
 
SimonP said:
It was a fair bit more than that. The settlement with Siemens was 36 million, but the city itself had spent another 60 million on prep work for the project. The city also gave up about $400 million that was promised by the federal and provincial governments. The province has agreed to fund the new plan, but that federal money has yet to rematerialize.
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Additionally, the reset button pushed back the timeline of getting a new LRT line by 8 years (plus the years spent developing the previous plan). Ottawa missed the boat on getting stimulus money for later phases of its old plan (lost opportunity costs?). There is no way they could get the same price for construction today. And the worst part of it is they will still be building a modified version of the cancelled line anyways as well as other lines from the previous plan ( if they get funding at some point).

Did they come up with a better plan? Sure. But it meant that for all the planning and work on LRT they did for almost two decades, all they will get will one 12.6 KM line (assuming it gets funding, that is). Whereas if they had just proceeded with the first line as planned, they could have started a transit way conversion/downtown tunnel study at the same time and been ready to go when the time came to get more stimulus/transit money.

We are at a point where cancelling these lines is going to set back transit in Toronto for years... remember that a big reason that the Ottawa plans were cancelled was because of transit "advocates" (many of whom still aren't happy with the new plan, I might add, and want a surface route downtown instead of a tunnel). What if after this year's election in Ottawa the new mayor/council wants to press the reset button again?
 
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Canceling SELRT is not a good idea; if it can't be upgraded (subway to Agincourt), then it should go ahead as is. If canceled, the funds are unlikely to apply towards DRL; rather, they will be used for purposes other than transit.

I wonder if SELRT can be made more useful by extending Danforth subway via STC to Sheppard / McCowan. Then riders from both east of McCowan and some distance west of it could use SELRT to get to Danforth subway; this is a lot more attractive than backtracking to Markham Rd in order to get to SLRT. Since SLRT's construction won't start till 2015, there is time to consider that option.

Regarding Eglinton: we are quite obviously not getting Midtown Crosstown GO, or Lawrence LRT, any time soon. Therefore, it is preferable to maximize the capacity of the Eglinton route through the central area with narrow streets. If the subway between Don Mills and Jane can be built for about same money as the LRT tunnel, that's the way to go. Construction starting in 2013, this is still doable.
 
Right now, in a boardroom somewhere, the Metrolinx board is sorting through many briefcases full of cash, all while thinking "gee, I sure wish a group of geeks would show up, with some lines drawn on a map, who can tell us how to delay any transit improvements by another 8 years, and make the expenses much higher than they are now..."
 
It's better to lose $50 million and save the remaining $850 for some REAL mass/rapid transit. If you are going to build any system regardless of technology then do it right the first time. What moron could dream up a Sheppard Line but have no connection to STC?
Make no mistake these routes are streetcars and little more. They will not be as fast as a limited stop bus service and god help the long suffering Torontonians if there is ever even a fender bender at any of the cross streets as the whole system will come to a complete stop. If the city is unwilling to use anything but streetcars then use their abilities to their maximum benefit.
First do Eglinton totally grade separated using rail corridors and from Pearson to Kingston. That is priority one. If Toronto insists on going ahead with Sheppard then Finch can wait. People along Finch will be getting better service with the Spadina Ext anyway.
If they are going to go ahead with Sheppard then the line should go from Spadina along Sheppard to STC that means taking the extra money saved by not building east of STC and use it to go under/over main intersections and converting the stubway to LRT. The MINIMUM station spacing should be 1km but average 1.25 to 2km. It can stop at grade for actual stations but between station no obstruction at all giving it subway speed. It would also create a seamless system from Spadina to STC. It would be preferable to just extend the stubway in each direction but that won't fly.
Life's about choices and seeing you have very few then that means setting priorities and cancelling whole lines to make sure the ones you do build are done right the first time. That also means cancelling the SRT extension and funneling that money into Eglinton & Sheppard.
It is far better to build true mass/rapid cross town routes to begin with than a bunch of disjointed, slow, and low capacity lines all over the damn place. Take that $2 billion from not extending SRT, Finch, and stopping Sheppard at STC and use that saved money for true rapid/mass transit that can be built by 2020 along Eglinton and Sheppard.
 
GraphicMatt said:
A couple *of* grammar mistakes in a 20 page document.
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That's debatable. Some say it's a mistake, others say the *of* is optional.

With Transit City's two main proponents not running for re-election, and with only one current mayoral candidate explicitly endorsing TC (and he's a long shot), I'm not buying this contrived announcement. Call me in six months.
 
kettal said:
Right now, in a boardroom somewhere, the Metrolinx board is sorting through many briefcases full of cash, all while thinking "gee, I sure wish a group of geeks would show up, with some lines drawn on a map, who can tell us how to delay any transit improvements by another 8 years, and make the expenses much higher than they are now..."
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So lets just accept whatever we're given without any thought. Subway to Newmarket centre!!!!
 
waterloowarrior said:
Additionally, the reset button pushed back the timeline of getting a new LRT line by 8 years (plus the years spent developing the previous plan). Ottawa missed the boat on getting stimulus money for later phases of its old plan (lost opportunity costs?). There is no way they could get the same price for construction today. And the worst part of it is they will still be building a modified version of the cancelled line anyways as well as other lines from the previous plan ( if they get funding at some point).

Did they come up with a better plan? Sure. But it meant that for all the planning and work on LRT they did for almost two decades, all they will get will one 12.6 KM line (assuming it gets funding, that is). Whereas if they had just proceeded with the first line as planned, they could have started a transit way conversion/downtown tunnel study at the same time and been ready to go when the time came to get more stimulus/transit money.

We are at a point where cancelling these lines is going to set back transit in Toronto for years... remember that a big reason that the Ottawa plans were cancelled was because of transit "advocates" (many of whom still aren't happy with the new plan, I might add, and want a surface route downtown instead of a tunnel). What if after this year's election in Ottawa the new mayor/council wants to press the reset button again?
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Ottawa made the right choice in cancelling the 1st LRT project. Plain and simple. The thing was absolute garbage. It makes the SELRT look like a great idea. Half of the line went through corn fields for f* sake!

I don't buy this "oh they should have just started it, then changed it while it was underway" argument. Get the plan right, then build it. If the plan isn't right, don't build it. And who are these "transit advocates" that you speak of? I have yet to speak to anyone involved in the transit planning world in Ottawa who preferred the old plan over the new one. The only people who do are developers in Riverside south, and the old mayor. Any transit planner with half a brain could have told you that running LRT at-grade through downtown was a bad idea. Hell, the tunnel was even studied as part of the original Transitway BRT plan in the 70s! The at-grade option was chosen because it would have raised the cost of the project substantially, and at that point the added capacity of a tunnel wasn't needed. If you've ever stood downtown waiting for the 95, 96, or 97 bus at rush hour, you'd agree that the extra capacity is definitely needed, and simply swapping out buses for trains would have done nothing.

So yes, Ottawa did make the right decision in cancelling it, and I'm glad that my city council actually had the balls to stand up for what was right. The taxpayers paid a small price for it, but it's a smaller price to pay than living with a mistake for the next 20-30 years. I only hope that Torontonians will take a page from Ottawa's book, and take a step back, and get it right. The people of Ottawa actually had the guts to stand up and say "at-grade LRT along primary corridors is not good enough". And look what they're getting: grade-separated LRT instead.
 
kettal said:
Right now, in a boardroom somewhere, the Metrolinx board is sorting through many briefcases full of cash, all while thinking "gee, I sure wish a group of geeks would show up, with some lines drawn on a map, who can tell us how to delay any transit improvements by another 8 years, and make the expenses much higher than they are now..."
Click to expand...

Right now, in a boardroom somewhere, the Metrolinx board is saying "I'm sure glad that Miller and Giambrone are on their way out, I'm sick of having them pushing for LRT everywhere. We can finally get back to sensible transit planning without having 2 politicians who know f* all about transit planning meddling in our affairs. And since they're going, we may be able to push the TTC for fare intregration and Presto."
 
Right now, in a board room somewhere, the Metrolinx board is wearing hooded shrouds and laughing about how everyone believes that a plane took down the south tower when it was clearly a controlled demolition.
 
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