Metrolinx strategy for funding and building Transit City and Viva

[Fresh Start]

The fact alone that feeding more mass transit lines into the outer sections of YUS has taken over the agenda, without first addressing how to alleviate the choke-points of Bloor-Yonge, St George and Union, proves how screwed up this current administration's priorities are and how vastly superior the SOS Plan is.

Those who want the DRL now ought to realize that $8.15 billion in transit allocated funding could afford the City to build it all now (Eglinton-Eglinton). I think Finch West and Sheppard East were doing just fine with its buses before TC came along and filled some folks' heads with delusions of grandeur.

 

[GraphicMatt]

^^ So if we can counter all the basic point of TC WHILE making it cost-neutral WHILE addressing future system needs and setting up a backbone network WHILE adding the DRL, how can you even argue it?

I argue it on two fronts: first, that your costing is unrealistic. Yes, yes, I know, 'cathedral stations' and blah blah blah. But the reality is that we're unlikely to see a significant shift in construction methodology and management in the time period we're talking about. It costs what it costs. In the current climate, an Eglinton subway to the airport will eat your entire budget.

Second, you're setting things back a minimum of five years - and probably 10 -, by which time the political climate will have changed drastically. We could conceivably have Rob Ford or Rocco Rossi in the mayor's office, Tim Hudak in the provincial seat and Harper - or McKay or Day or Flaherty - in the PM position.

We need to get started building now.

 

[Mapleson]

If SOS wants to be taken seriously at the political level, they need to put forward a plan that adresses the political realities as well as transit needs. At this point, Sheppard East could still be stopped, but not without costing a lot of money. I'd rather spend that money in finishing the job (they shouldn't have broken ground in the first place yet imo) that spending it on not finishing it.

 

[Fresh Start]

$15 billion is a hell of a price to pay for an non-'all encompassing plan'. And the DRL was forced into the discussion because the TTC planners spoke up and said "the Yonge extension won't work without the DRL". The City didn't give a damn about the DRL before that, and Miller and Giambrone STILL don't.

I'm curious as to where on earth GM thinks funding for the DRL will come from after all 3 levels of gov'ts spend money on the "single largest transit investment in Canadian history" as Pritchard likes to put it? If you think Toronto's posed to get much more money after that, you're living in denial. That's why it's paramount that the money not be squandered on band-aid solutions. I want by 2030 to be able to get right across this city by transit in about one hour, from Etobicoke to eastern Scarborough. Transit City will never grant the taxpayer such a luxury, never.

 

[GraphicMatt]

$15 billion is a hell of a price to pay for an non-'all encompassing plan'. And the DRL was forced into the discussion because the TTC planners spoke up and said "the Yonge extension won't work without the DRL". The City didn't give a damn about the DRL before that, and Miller and Giambrone STILL don't.

At no point was there ever a $15 billion commitment for transit city or any Toronto transit plan.

I agree that the DRL should be higher priority but, again, screwing with already-in-motion LRT plans won't get us the DRL any faster.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'm curious as to where on earth GM thinks funding for the DRL will come from after all 3 levels of gov'ts spend money on the "single largest transit investment in Canadian history" as Pritchard likes to put it? If you think Toronto's posed to get much more money after that, you're living in denial. That's why it's paramount that the money not be squandered on band-aid solutions. I want by 2030 to be able to get right across this city by transit in about one hour, from Etobicoke to eastern Scarborough. Transit City will never grant the taxpayer such a luxury, never.

There will always need to be more funding for transit. Even if we were building the DRL now (wouldn't that be nice), we'd still need more funding for transit.

Only one level of government is really committing any funding to TC, by the way.

 

[Fresh Start]

If SOS wants to be taken seriously at the political level, they need to put forward a plan that adresses the political realities as well as transit needs. At this point, Sheppard East could still be stopped, but not without costing a lot of money. I'd rather spend that money in finishing the job (they shouldn't have broken ground in the first place yet imo) that spending it on not finishing it.

Eglinton Crosstown and the DRL are more urgently needed. We've deferred the entire Sheppard subway extension to Scarbrough Ctr project until Phase II because we felt that it shouldn't be truncated off at another random point because of scarce funds available right now. Better to at least put a start on subway technology along Eglinton to protect that corridor from capture by LRT and get the section of the DRL which will offer the most relief to the B-Y interchange built as soon as possible.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I argue it on two fronts: first, that your costing is unrealistic. Yes, yes, I know, 'cathedral stations' and blah blah blah. But the reality is that we're unlikely to see a significant shift in construction methodology and management in the time period we're talking about. It costs what it costs. In the current climate, an Eglinton subway to the airport will eat your entire budget.

Second, you're setting things back a minimum of five years - and probably 10 -, by which time the political climate will have changed drastically. We could conceivably have Rob Ford or Rocco Rossi in the mayor's office, Tim Hudak in the provincial seat and Harper - or McKay or Day or Flaherty - in the PM position.

We need to get started building now.

The only thing stopping the TTC from trenching and elevating suburban subway lines is a lack of will to do so. Significant money could be saved on it for really very little damage to the area (though very well could improve it through landscaping let alone having a subway at your doorstep.)

The point is that this plan is dependent on people deciding what they want. Obviously, if people don't want it to get built, then it won't get built. But if people vote for a SOS plan, well the EA's are being done as we speak and the money could be put on a new course in a year.

 

[SimonP]

I'm curious as to where on earth GM thinks funding for the DRL will come from after all 3 levels of gov'ts spend money on the "single largest transit investment in Canadian history" as Pritchard likes to put it? If you think Toronto's posed to get much more money after that, you're living in denial.

You misunderstand how political decision making happens. It's not like there is a fixed $15 billion for transit over the next 20 years. Governments will respond to the demands of the voters. If the priority for GTA voters is more transit, then that will become the gov't priority as well.

How do we make sure that transit stays a priority? The people most likely to vote for pro-transit candidates are transit users. If we can increase ridership through projects like Transit City, it makes it much more likely that we will riding a DRL by 2030.

 

[Justin10000]

If SOS wants to be taken seriously at the political level, they need to put forward a plan that adresses the political realities as well as transit needs. At this point, Sheppard East could still be stopped, but not without costing a lot of money. I'd rather spend that money in finishing the job (they shouldn't have broken ground in the first place yet imo) that spending it on not finishing it.

Sheppard East cannot be stopped.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Sheppard East cannot be stopped.

Eglinton West Subway was stopped after construction started. Of course Sheppard East can be stopped. I personally think it'll be a waste of money to stop it now though.

 

[nfitz]

Um, our plan INCLUDES DRL in its costing. Transit City DOES NOT INCLUDE A DRL.

Precisely ... you are comparing your plan to only the Transit City LRT plan. You fail to consider either the Transit City bus plan, or the DRL which Metrolinx has planned for. The Save our Sheppard plan may well rank the DRL higher than Metrolinx ... but are you really suggesting the entire SOS plan is going to be completed in less than 25 years?

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton West Subway was stopped after construction started. Of course Sheppard East can be stopped. I personally think it'll be a waste of money to stop it now though.

With the 3 levels of government agreeing to Sheppard east, it would be very difficult to stop either this, or the Spadina subway extension. Unlike the 100% Ontario government-funded lines.

Of course nothing is impossible ... but very, very unlikely.

 

[hbl33]

Should Transit City must be the only option to improve transit in the city, I'd like to see more "LRT" lines not just in the proposed areas, but the following areas as well:

- Kipling or Islington
- Finch East
- Sheppard West
- Waterfront East
- Victoria Park
- McCowan
- Bathurst (north of Spadina)
- Lawrence
- Albion-Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere
- and Kingston Rd to Pickering TC.

Transit City, as of present, still leaves lotta gaps between the LRT lines. Vic Park (which in my experience, was more busier than Jane as well as high density housings are heavily clustered in this artery), Bathurst (I hate that slow bus trip, also clusters of high-densities), Kipling/Islington (bus travel is too tiring) are critical as having LRTs to Malvern, Shep East to Meadowvale, Jane/Finch areas. Lacking demand in Finch East sounds like another horse crap.

 

[gweed123]

I argue it on two fronts: first, that your costing is unrealistic. Yes, yes, I know, 'cathedral stations' and blah blah blah. But the reality is that we're unlikely to see a significant shift in construction methodology and management in the time period we're talking about. It costs what it costs. In the current climate, an Eglinton subway to the airport will eat your entire budget.

$310 million/km for suburban, $330 million/km for urban, $180 million/km for trenched is unrealistic? I'd say those are pretty industry standard.

Second, you're setting things back a minimum of five years - and probably 10 -, by which time the political climate will have changed drastically. We could conceivably have Rob Ford or Rocco Rossi in the mayor's office, Tim Hudak in the provincial seat and Harper - or McKay or Day or Flaherty - in the PM position.

We need to get started building now.

Not really. A lot of the planning for some of these lines was done under previous plans. They just need to be updated slightly. The portion of the Eglinton West subway from Eg West stn to Jane hasn't really changed much from a planning perspective. Ditto for the Sheppard EA. The DRL is being studied as we speak, and if it became a priority, the EA could be accelerated. So I think you're overestimated the amount of time it would take to get the ball rolling on at least some of those projects.