Metrolinx strategy for funding and building Transit City and Viva

[The Mad Navigator]

Please just start building this. Build anything! I'm tired of years of talking and planning and counter-planning. Building any new transit is better than talking about how to build transit forever.

Amen!

Next month will be interesting as we shall see or not see if Metrolinx purchases TBMs for the underground section of Eglinton.

 

[GraphicMatt]

If they have any trouble, there are some Boring Machines available in transit threads on these forums.

 

[nfitz]

I fail to see how Phase 2 is not relevant. The money for it has not dissapeared, merely delayed. You're just choosing to ignore it because it makes Transit City look even worse when they're stacked up side by side. Phase 2 also brings the total of the plan to just under $15 billion.

Because the cost IS just under $15 billion.

And had someone had pointed out the grammar mistakes, I would have fixed them as well.

I pointed it out the day it was posted. Along with the kerning issues.

Doubling the carrying capacity won't really do much good if you don't widen the platform at STC

They are lengthening the Scarborough Centre platforms. The width is only a problem when the crowd backs up waiting for trains; with more frequent trains, the platform should be emptier that it currently is. The width is already much wider than several subway stations that have higher ridership.

From what I have read, I also believe they are not extending the platforms at any of the existing stations

What have you read that said this? There is board after board in the April presentation showing the platform extensions at each of Lawrence East, Ellesmere, Midland, Scarborough Centre, and McCowan stations. The presentation is dated April 12, 2010; what has changed since then?

... so having doubled trains won't really do much good if you can't fit them in the station.

Why would you think they would make the trains bigger than the stations?

Even the TTC projects ridership to hit 10,000 pphpd by 2031, I'd say that's pretty solid subway ridership numbers, so please don't tell me the demand isn't there, or that it won't be there.

It's getting into the lower end for subway ... 20 years in the future. Remember that when we build the Danforth line, TTC talked of 20,000 being the point when you built subway. If your comparing surface LRT to subway then 10,000 is a concern. But there's no reason that loads of 10,000 to 20,000 can't be dealt with with grade-separated LRT. Perhaps at some point in the 2050s or so, there will be justification to extend the subway to Scarborough Centre.

The SRT revamp and extension is in the same ballpark in terms of dollars as a subway extension to STC.

It's no where near the same cost. Most of the cost in the SRT project is the rolling stock, and the 2.5 km extension

No, I'm just saying that the TTC did their projections for an LRT line. Subways generate more riders than LRT lines do.

Not much more than a grade-separated LRT that runs the same travel time as a subway. The only difference in demand modelling would be the penalty of the transfer.

And I also find it funny that you completely ignored my 'unserved neighbourhoods' rebuttal.

Because it was just so obviously hollow it didn't seem worth the time responding to.

With TC, Scarborough gets virtually no new service, aside from an LRT along Sheppard which shouldn't even be there.

What??? Sheppard East LRT; SRT extension to Sheppard. SRT upgrade.

East York gets nothing.

... uh ... an LRT subway along Eglinton through Leaside - and the piece through Don Mills Road is very convenient for many in East York.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

If they have any trouble, there are some Boring Machines available in transit threads on these forums.

lol

 

[waterloowarrior]

I've criticized Transit City and a lot of the faulty logic that's been used, especially relating to land development, but it's time to get this plan done. Restarting it now just means that nothing will happen for years.... and it's been pared down quite a bit already. It's time to start building these lines and focus on getting the DRL done as well as finding real funding sources for transit. I still think Sheppard East is a dumb idea, but you can't please everyone... some of the stuff they cut was actually a good idea IMO like the Eglinton Airport routing, which will hopefully get a rethink between now and the future. The Eglinton tunnel is going to be great!

 

[Mapleson]

The Eglinton connection to the Airport is still in the 10-year Metrolinx capital program. The transcripts noted it was delayed until 2022 because GTAA didn't think it was necessary for the Pan Am Games.

 

[gweed123]

Because the cost IS just under $15 billion.

And Transit City wasn't? Before it was cut I mean.

I pointed it out the day it was posted. Along with the kerning issues.

And it's been changed in the more recent version, it just hasn't been publicly posted yet.

It's getting into the lower end for subway ... 20 years in the future. Remember that when we build the Danforth line, TTC talked of 20,000 being the point when you built subway. If your comparing surface LRT to subway then 10,000 is a concern. But there's no reason that loads of 10,000 to 20,000 can't be dealt with with grade-separated LRT. Perhaps at some point in the 2050s or so, there will be justification to extend the subway to Scarborough Centre.

It's no where near the same cost. Most of the cost in the SRT project is the rolling stock, and the 2.5 km extension

Not much more than a grade-separated LRT that runs the same travel time as a subway. The only difference in demand modelling would be the penalty of the transfer.

20,000 pphpd was the average for the entire line though. The extremities of a line nearly always have lower ridership than the central portion. I think a subway connecting STC to Kennedy via McCowan and Danforth Rd would be a very successful line, and would actually pass through some areas that would actually generate ridership along the way. Let's face it, Kennedy and STC are the only 2 stations on the current line that are actually really being used. Why keep that in place?

Because it was just so obviously hollow it didn't seem worth the time responding to.

You were the one who said that MoTo left a lot of gaps in terms of coverage, I was merely saying that TC does as well. It's just the gaps that MoTo leaves are less significant (ie not ignoring downtown) compared to TC.

What??? Sheppard East LRT; SRT extension to Sheppard. SRT upgrade.

Malvern? Morningside? Kingston Rd? SRT upgrade doesn't really serve any new areas, it's just upgrading an existing service.

... uh ... an LRT subway along Eglinton through Leaside - and the piece through Don Mills Road is very convenient for many in East York.

I didn't see anything along Don Mills in that map...

 

[gweed123]

I've criticized Transit City and a lot of the faulty logic that's been used, especially relating to land development, but it's time to get this plan done. Restarting it now just means that nothing will happen for years.... and it's been pared down quite a bit already. It's time to start building these lines and focus on getting the DRL done as well as finding real funding sources for transit. I still think Sheppard East is a dumb idea, but you can't please everyone... some of the stuff they cut was actually a good idea IMO like the Eglinton Airport routing, which will hopefully get a rethink between now and the future. The Eglinton tunnel is going to be great!

Hopefully they'll at least rethink the Richview corridor options. The current plan is next to the height of stupidity (the height of stupidity of course is having Sheppard East being built 1st, and the DRL not be included in the plan at all).

 

[kEiThZ]

When it comes to the number of passengers, Pearson is in the top 35-40 airports in the world for all passenger traffic (the kind that matters to transit). It's 16th in international passenger traffic. And of course, one of the busiest on this continent. You'd be hardpressed to find too many airports of such equally vital economic importance to the country and their region, not having solid transit connections.

Anyway, I guess the airport's users, employees and everybody else in and around the airport will now be at the mercy of Blue 22.

 

[nfitz]

And Transit City wasn't? Before it was cut I mean.

I don't think it was $15-billion. The seven original Transit City lines are still well below that.

20,000 pphpd was the average for the entire line though. The extremities of a line nearly always have lower ridership than the central portion. I think a subway connecting STC to Kennedy via McCowan and Danforth Rd would be a very successful line, and would actually pass through some areas that would actually generate ridership along the way. Let's face it, Kennedy and STC are the only 2 stations on the current line that are actually really being used. Why keep that in place?

Lawrence East usage is not insiginificant ... and growing. However, the main point is that the LRT would provide almost as good service at a much lower cost - both capital and operational.

You were the one who said that MoTo left a lot of gaps in terms of coverage, I was merely saying that TC does as well. It's just the gaps that MoTo leaves are less significant (ie not ignoring downtown) compared to TC.

If you merely compare the Transit City LRT plan to the MoTO. You ignore both the Transit City bus plan, and the DRL which is in the Metrolinx plan.

Malvern? Morningside? Kingston Rd? SRT upgrade doesn't really serve any new areas, it's just upgrading an existing service.

And extending to Sheppard. In addition to the Sheppard LRT and the Eglinton LRT that runs through Scarborough. The only currently funded Transit City line that doesn't go through Scarborough is the Finch-West. And both of those that are starting in the short-term run through Scarborough. The current funding seems to benefit Scarborough more than any other area. I'm shocked that you would say that Scarborough gets virtually no new service!

didn't see anything along Don Mills in that map...

I said through Don Mills Road (not along). The Eglinton LRT crosses Don Mills Road walking distance from East York. But the primarye point was that it actually runs through the Leaside area of East York.

 

[nfitz]

Anyway, I guess the airport's users, employees and everybody else in and around the airport will now be at the mercy of Blue 22.

Unless the passes are really cheap, unlikely. Besides, it doesn't really work for most airport workers, unless they live downtown ... or near Dundas West. More likely or not, they will continue to take the existing airport express - which is very fast to Kipling; or they will also take new ones that will run quickly to the new Transitway stations at Renforth and Eglinton/Jane.

 

[Dan416]

If you merely compare the Transit City LRT plan to the MoTO. You ignore both the Transit City bus plan, and the DRL which is in the Metrolinx plan.

Um, our plan INCLUDES DRL in its costing. Transit City DOES NOT INCLUDE A DRL. I don't know where people get this idea from. Go to the Transit City website. DRL is no where on there. I don't know why people seem to think TC includes DRL. Metrolinx cosiders the DRL important, but the city has only decided to include it as a carrot for the province to get the Yonge extension. SOS is a much bigger proponent of the DRL than Metrolinx or the TTC or the City or the province.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Um, our plan INCLUDES DRL in its costing. Transit City DOES NOT INCLUDE A DRL. I don't know where people get this idea from. Go to the Transit City website. DRL is no where on there. I don't know why people seem to think TC includes DRL. Metrolinx cosiders the DRL important, but the city has only decided to include it as a carrot for the province to get the Yonge extension. SOS is a much bigger proponent of the DRL than Metrolinx or the TTC or the City or the province.

The City doesn't want the Yonge extension - they forced the DRL into the discussion as a condition for going forward with the Yonge extension.

Transit City is not an all-encompassing plan for everything transit-related in the city. There's other stuff planned, including the bus plan.

I do agree that the DRL should be higher priority and we should all advocate for it. But I don't think screwing with already-in-motion LRT plans will get us the DRL any faster.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ So if we can counter all the basic point of TC WHILE making it cost-neutral WHILE addressing future system needs and setting up a backbone network WHILE adding the DRL, how can you even argue it?

 

[gweed123]

The City doesn't want the Yonge extension - they forced the DRL into the discussion as a condition for going forward with the Yonge extension.

Transit City is not an all-encompassing plan for everything transit-related in the city. There's other stuff planned, including the bus plan.

I do agree that the DRL should be higher priority and we should all advocate for it. But I don't think screwing with already-in-motion LRT plans will get us the DRL any faster.

$15 billion is a hell of a price to pay for an non-'all encompassing plan'. And the DRL was forced into the discussion because the TTC planners spoke up and said "the Yonge extension won't work without the DRL". The City didn't give a damn about the DRL before that, and Miller and Giambrone STILL don't.