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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

Palma said:
Plus how many times have these estimate ridership levels been wrong? Just like those employment levels that North York was to have to justify the sheppard subway.
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ridership projections have been fixed up since, the TTC has learned its lesson. its ridership projections are now based on low growth scenarios.
 
Palma said:
Plus how many times have these estimate ridership levels been wrong? Just like those employment levels that North York was to have to justify the sheppard subway.
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At least someone at the Star is willing to criticize the Sheppard LRT and the excessive numbers of transfers caused by this proposal. http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...h_is_worse_than_any_of_the_options_james.html

The thing is with the Sheppard subway (existing and proposed), there was a lot of office space built along it in the 1980s, at Yonge & Sheppard, Victoria Park & Sheppard and Scarborough Centre. Then in the 1990s we had a recession followed by amalgamation and raising commercial taxes to absurd levels, killing the office market along that route. Had office space development along Sheppard continued at the pace it did in the 1980s, there would be several times as much office space as there is today, which would mean that the Sheppard subway would have high ridership.

There has been an enormous amount of residential development on Sheppard in the last 10 years or so though. The municipal politicians tend to completely ignore this. There are only a few other areas other than downtown and immediately west of downtown with anywhere near this number of condos, the Humber Bay Shores area, the Square One area of Mississauga, Yonge/Eglinton and Kipling/Bloor being the main ones. I think that if a future mayor (e.g. John Tory) has the sense to cut commercial tax rates significantly, then the office space market on Sheppard Avenue will come back because it will be seen as a cheaper alternative to expensive downtown office space that is higher quality than Mississauga. With ridiculously high commercial tax rates it doesn't seem to be economical to build office space anywhere in City of Toronto suburbs, so we get absurdly expensive downtown office space and low quality office space in Mississauga.
 
you except for the fact that the star gets everything almost completely wrong about it... The LRT starts at Morningside rather than McCowen, people heading downtown would use Scarborough instead of Sheppard, etc.
 
I think the Star's point is that to go from Scarborough Centre to Yonge/Sheppard is that you have to transfer twice.
 
How on earth can you say Toronto struggles from ridiculously high corporate tax rates. Ontatio and canada boasts one if the lowest corporate tax rates in the western world. Additionally the current city policy to move the propery tax burden from the commercial class to the residential is also essentially lowercorporate tax rates. Toronto boasts some if the lowest rates in the GTHA. To say tax rates are what's holding back office development on Sheppard is completely disingenuous.
 
mrxbombastic said:
How on earth can you say Toronto struggles from ridiculously high corporate tax rates. Ontatio and canada boasts one if the lowest corporate tax rates in the western world. Additionally the current city policy to move the propery tax burden from the commercial class to the residential is also essentially lowercorporate tax rates. Toronto boasts some if the lowest rates in the GTHA. To say tax rates are what's holding back office development on Sheppard is completely disingenuous.
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Compared to the outlying regions the City of Toronto has high corporate taxes and low residential taxes. People either want to be downtown or in Markham, Whitby, Burlington, Milton, etc.
 
andrewpmk said:
At least someone at the Star is willing to criticize the Sheppard LRT and the excessive numbers of transfers caused by this proposal. http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...h_is_worse_than_any_of_the_options_james.html

The thing is with the Sheppard subway (existing and proposed), there was a lot of office space built along it in the 1980s, at Yonge & Sheppard, Victoria Park & Sheppard and Scarborough Centre. Then in the 1990s we had a recession followed by amalgamation and raising commercial taxes to absurd levels, killing the office market along that route. Had office space development along Sheppard continued at the pace it did in the 1980s, there would be several times as much office space as there is today, which would mean that the Sheppard subway would have high ridership.

There has been an enormous amount of residential development on Sheppard in the last 10 years or so though. The municipal politicians tend to completely ignore this. There are only a few other areas other than downtown and immediately west of downtown with anywhere near this number of condos, the Humber Bay Shores area, the Square One area of Mississauga, Yonge/Eglinton and Kipling/Bloor being the main ones. I think that if a future mayor (e.g. John Tory) has the sense to cut commercial tax rates significantly, then the office space market on Sheppard Avenue will come back because it will be seen as a cheaper alternative to expensive downtown office space that is higher quality than Mississauga. With ridiculously high commercial tax rates it doesn't seem to be economical to build office space anywhere in City of Toronto suburbs, so we get absurdly expensive downtown office space and low quality office space in Mississauga.
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Yet even with all those new condos, the Sheppard subway is virtually empty outside of rush hour. The reason is that even if the condo residents actually take transit, which many do not, they likely only take it to get downtown for work. For many of the condos, it's so inconvenient to reach the subway that there's actually a shuttle bus from the condo lobby to the station. Many stores along Sheppard have a giant parking lot between the road and the store entrance, making it seem like walking is unwelcome.

I still remember the last time I used to Sheppard subway to go to a dentist appointment, there was only one other person in the whole station.

The Bloor line on the other hand is used for multiple purposes, short & medium and even some long trips and is busy all day, has walkable neighbourhoods and feeder buses connected to it.
 
If They aren't low by rate then I stand corrected. I would say however that the amenities provided in the city of Toronto and the services available to its citizens and business to facilitate their business act as a big component of making businesses want to come here. The whole idea, for as much as it may be exagerated and for as much as this is a crude representation, of creative class moving back to the city and businesses following them to spur innovation and productivity also plays a big role in the attractiveness of toronto for businesses.

What this is to say is that it's not simply about tax rates regarding why more offices don't locate at NYCC. There are other factors at play and as they change we may see the composition of NYCC change as well but its not as simple as taxes.


All that being said. The residential growth on Sheppard its not all transit driven. Much of it is still very auto oriented with suburban ladscape and highways next door, contributing to why the Sheppard subway runs peanut sized ridership levels in comparison.
 
Personally, I still believe a short 2 stop extension of the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to Victoria Park would do immense wonders for the line and the area!

A) The business node at Consumers will finally be served by rapid transit - rather than being just short of it...
B) The 404/DVP Barrier will no longer be an issue for all the traffic trying to access Don Mills station via the overburdened Sheppard overpass
C) Many Scarborough bus routes could access the Victoria Park North station that currently don't go into Don Mills
D) Lots and Lots of traffic on Sheppard Avenue will be reduced that currently tries to access Don Mills station
E) Victoria Park & Sheppard has immense redevelopment potential, the entire intersection node is ready for it!
F) It is only a single short bus ride away from the major employment node at Victoria Park & Steeles

There are probably many other benefits that I can't think of...but if they are going to send a TBM down Sheppard to get from Consumers to Don Mills, you might as well take it to Victoria Park...

And I still don't understand why they cannot do Cut N' Cover construction along the WIDE SUBURBAN Sheppard Avenue from Consumers onwards...
 
If Sheppard is extended to Vic park as you propose them I would with very little doubt say go at the way to STC. Cut and cover would be the obvious choice but for all we know they may make the case that traffic is bad on Sheppard and that ripping up the roads for a subway would be terrible. At which point I keel over in my chair and laugh hieratically because that was a reservation with the LRT. It may very well turn or to be the ultimate form of nimbyism and whining.
 
mrxbombastic said:
The BD extension also eats up $1 billion in public funds and debentures which could be allocated more effectively to build capital projects that are more immediate necessary. TCHC housing repair backlog could be wiped out. Gardiner Expressway refurbishment work could be carried out with those funds. Basement flooding capital plans, roadwork capital plans, bridge rehab and TTC State of good repair backlog could also be addressed with those funds. East Bayfront LRT or a Finch LRT extension to Yonge could be built with those funds.
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Why do people think that the province and feds would have pitched in extra dollars if there was no subway extension planned? That billion is not coming from the city's coffers. And it would have never reached the city if there was no subway extension proposal and the LRT was built instead. It's a fallacious assumption that the feds and Queen's Park would have simply gifted another $1 billion to Toronto to address all those other problems just because we chose LRT over HRT.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Something is really bugging me and I really think we are going to end up with sheppard and BD as both subways to scarborough. I want the LRT, though. It simply serves more people, and it ends at Dean Park eventually.
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This. I supported subways. But I've come to realize that money isn't there. It's time for someone to stand up and say that since Sheppard Subway will never be extended that it's time convert it to LRT and plan to run from Port Union to Weston with a tunnel from Don Mills to Downsview.
 
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