steveintoronto
Superstar
If any other posters have already posted similar problems to what I and others have posted here the last two days, please re-post them.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
RE: Ongoing Presto broken card saga: Had incredibly satisfying outcome today. In the event, I did drop into Union Station today, as Fitz had suggested. I'll detail the outcome later here, I must choose my words carefully because there *is* a workaround, but it must be done manually by willing and knowledgeable staff. I got really lucky today, and had a couple of them working on it.
As per mine and others' similar experiences, the reason a number of you posted 'me too' is because this occurrence is rampant in a number of manifestations, and the software doesn't have a written course of action to address it.
I'm still mulling over what I can reveal without giving away personal details of staff and the workaround they've come up with. It's more a GO staff protocol for dealing where Presto have failed. I will give detail later, but for now, two points:
It was made clear to me that persons like myself *must* make a political issue out of this, GO staff already know what a %$%^( pain this is, to them as well as card-holders. They're the ones that take the public's angst, and they can't speak up in many instances, unless you pay a personal visit where the right team members can address the specifics of your case by doing a manual 'hack' of the touted protocol. There is no fix within the software itself unless manually entered. More on that later.
The senior manager of the two working on this feels "this won't get any better"...and he doesn't mean just Presto, he means automated systems in general. More on that later too.
Last night I posted and deleted a rant with a number of issues I'd found searching on the background of this and other cases. I deleted it after realizing ranting won't help the cause. But I did get confirmation today of a number of points I raised, and I distill this down to just one for now:
There is *no* mention in the Metrolinx Act of powers for Presto or a card doing same. I'll continue to search on that just in case there's been supplementary legislation passed to do so. For now, it seems Presto 'makes it up as they go along'. That is the view also of some GO staff who have to deal with it. They know of no written legal protocol to consult on resolving cases.
And I can't help but wonder if Federal powers aren't being violated by certain financial transactions Presto undertakes. More on that later too.
Presto accord themselves powers far beyond what any provincial legislation could afford anyway, case in point: (Bear in mind that *even the Feds* don't claim to have this kind of power, let alone it being accorded in communications acts)
[...]
Applicable Law
By entering the PRESTO Website you acknowledge and agree that the PRESTO Website will be construed and evaluated according to the laws of the Province of Ontario, Canada. You hereby agree and confirm that your use of the PRESTO Website and all of the communications, transmissions and transactions associated with the PRESTO Website shall have occurred in the Province of Ontario, Canada and that you submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of the Province of Ontario as the proper and most convenient forum concerning the PRESTO Website. If you use the PRESTO Website from another jurisdiction, you are responsible for compliance with any and all applicable local laws. PRESTO makes no representation that the materials contained within the PRESTO Website are appropriate for customers outside of the Province of Ontario, Canada.
[...]
https://www.prestocard.ca/en/terms-and-conditions
These kind of presumptions percolate through every aspect of Presto's operations. They answer to no-one it seems. That has to change...
To be continued...
As per mine and others' similar experiences, the reason a number of you posted 'me too' is because this occurrence is rampant in a number of manifestations, and the software doesn't have a written course of action to address it.
I'm still mulling over what I can reveal without giving away personal details of staff and the workaround they've come up with. It's more a GO staff protocol for dealing where Presto have failed. I will give detail later, but for now, two points:
It was made clear to me that persons like myself *must* make a political issue out of this, GO staff already know what a %$%^( pain this is, to them as well as card-holders. They're the ones that take the public's angst, and they can't speak up in many instances, unless you pay a personal visit where the right team members can address the specifics of your case by doing a manual 'hack' of the touted protocol. There is no fix within the software itself unless manually entered. More on that later.
The senior manager of the two working on this feels "this won't get any better"...and he doesn't mean just Presto, he means automated systems in general. More on that later too.
Last night I posted and deleted a rant with a number of issues I'd found searching on the background of this and other cases. I deleted it after realizing ranting won't help the cause. But I did get confirmation today of a number of points I raised, and I distill this down to just one for now:
There is *no* mention in the Metrolinx Act of powers for Presto or a card doing same. I'll continue to search on that just in case there's been supplementary legislation passed to do so. For now, it seems Presto 'makes it up as they go along'. That is the view also of some GO staff who have to deal with it. They know of no written legal protocol to consult on resolving cases.
And I can't help but wonder if Federal powers aren't being violated by certain financial transactions Presto undertakes. More on that later too.
Presto accord themselves powers far beyond what any provincial legislation could afford anyway, case in point: (Bear in mind that *even the Feds* don't claim to have this kind of power, let alone it being accorded in communications acts)
[...]
Applicable Law
By entering the PRESTO Website you acknowledge and agree that the PRESTO Website will be construed and evaluated according to the laws of the Province of Ontario, Canada. You hereby agree and confirm that your use of the PRESTO Website and all of the communications, transmissions and transactions associated with the PRESTO Website shall have occurred in the Province of Ontario, Canada and that you submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of the Province of Ontario as the proper and most convenient forum concerning the PRESTO Website. If you use the PRESTO Website from another jurisdiction, you are responsible for compliance with any and all applicable local laws. PRESTO makes no representation that the materials contained within the PRESTO Website are appropriate for customers outside of the Province of Ontario, Canada.
[...]
https://www.prestocard.ca/en/terms-and-conditions
These kind of presumptions percolate through every aspect of Presto's operations. They answer to no-one it seems. That has to change...
To be continued...
DSC
Superstar
Member Bio
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- Jan 13, 2008
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When you say "data" do you mean your trips or your balance $$?? Why would you want old trip data transferred anyway?
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
DSC
Superstar
Member Bio
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2008
- Messages
- 19,994
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- 29,247
- Location
- St Lawrence Market Area
Yes, it is better but why do you care about info on old TTC trips. Time to let the past go!
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
johntauren
Active Member
I got a little weird problem with Presto recently, although the only effect is that I ended up with a free ride after the fact somehow.
I had to do some stuff around York U on Monday, but I got dropped off at Yorkdale. I took the TTC up, did my stuff and then took Brampton Zum bus home. My tap on the Zum bus no longer seems to exist, and the money it took off was never taken off. I transferred to a second bus later at Bramalea, and that shows as a transfer for $0, but no initial trip on Brampton transit was recorded. And I saw the money come off at the first tap, but the site shows it never did come off. I'm not complaining about saving a few bucks somehow, but it's still weird.
I had to do some stuff around York U on Monday, but I got dropped off at Yorkdale. I took the TTC up, did my stuff and then took Brampton Zum bus home. My tap on the Zum bus no longer seems to exist, and the money it took off was never taken off. I transferred to a second bus later at Bramalea, and that shows as a transfer for $0, but no initial trip on Brampton transit was recorded. And I saw the money come off at the first tap, but the site shows it never did come off. I'm not complaining about saving a few bucks somehow, but it's still weird.
WillTo
Senior Member
That bus probably needs to sync with the website.
If you check your current balance, does it reflect a deduction of one Brampton fare?
Megaton327
Senior Member
Has it been more than 24 hours since these trips? Most buses outside the TTC sync once per day in the middle of the night. Sometimes a bus, in the case of your transfer tap, syncs early for whatever reason. Sometimes a bus misses the nightly sync so you may have to wait 48 hours.
If you check your balance/transaction history in person, at a TTC/GO reload kiosk/ticket vending machine/balance checker, I believe it should list your current balance and all transactions with no delays or missing taps. For the website you have to wait a day or two.
nfitz
Superstar
Yeah, I've found the GO staff at Union have become increasingly pragmatic in their solutions. I didn't know Presto had gone though - they did clear up some very early weirdness, when I was just using it on GO.
As an example, I showed up one day with my 4-year old. Ah, they said, we need to put a birthdate on for a child, and it must be 6 or older; so we'll add 2 years to his age, and come back and fix it before 6 years pass. About 4 years earlier, I'd popped in to get one for my older child, the day before she turned 6, and they tried, and they said it won't let us do it, come back tomorrow! Now they'd probably just change the birthdate by a day. Worst-case, there's a higher charge one day 6 years in the future.
How did they sort it out?
Where were you keeping your card that broke? I've had mine in my wallet, in my front pocket, for almost 8 years. No issues. But they'll surely all die sooner or later, so we'll all be in the same boat one day.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I'm still loathe to reveal too much, and I'll be a lot clearer later today as to what to divulge or not. They were so incredibly helpful and dedicated to 'doing what's right' that they went beyond 'the norms'...which all concerned should commend, but some supervisor, most likely on the Presto side of the operation, might make life difficult for them. I still have a responsibility to pursue this at the highest level as the system is faulty at the top. It may in fact be Accenture's shortcoming. And another possibility: A fault in the fabric of the software that if a seemingly innocuous function is written into the algorithms, it opens a massive door that can be exploited.
But then one wonders, how do banks and other financial transaction institutions not have these kinds of problems?
They also came up with a simple fix for my second card, which was showing "Block Event" yesterday. It is now up-to-date online, ostensibly that's the 48 hr lag. I hadn't used it for about a year prior to the broken card breaking. Whether it complicates again or not, as long as the card itself shows the current and correct balance, I can get a refund at any service wicket. I've considered that, but doing so might entail their 4% surcharge, and the loss of the value of the card ($6), so I've decided to run down the balance by using it until there's roughly $15 left on it, and then keep that for visitors to use come the Summer.
What I will divulge at this point (and I will have a lot more to reveal later, just want to make sure I don't lay too many cards on the table at this time if I'm pursuing this higher-up, these strings are sometimes reviewed by ML staff) is that lower GO staff have tried all sorts of fixes by entering what should be corrective inputs to their software terminals, and have never had success doing a workaround within the software itself. They are resigned at this time to having to do a logic hack manually to 'trick' the process.
The workaround entails *not* registering the new card, adding value, or tapping on with it until the system updates. I'm still not completely clear on whether to register it once it assumes the identity of the prior card (In any software system I'm aware of, the card number can be reassigned to an account number, or vice-versa, when a replacement card is issued. Banks do this all the time).
I'll give it another day or so before using it, that card identity is now no longer showing on-line, my oldest card now current again is, so if the online account starts showing two cards again, I'll know that the registration has been carried over to the newest card. I'll update that info later.
There's a couple more details I'm withholding for now, I was treated very well as if it was a bank valuing the account holder.
Here's the automated email notification for the status of the broken card (which of course they kept, and gave me a photocopy of, along with the new card together):
(X is theirs, Z is my redaction)
I note by reading that again that "do not register" is the standard protocol procedure.
I had asked about transferring funds from a third card onto the new one, that can't be done within the limits of the software as written. Just one transfer and the option is locked.
In all fairness, the card had endured thousands of kilometers cycling in my back pocket (I wear cut-off jeans over my cycling shorts for no other reason than to carry keys, some paper cash and my Presto card. The padded shorts are a necessity for doing 100 km trips, too bad the cycling world is so freakin' vain that they can't include a pocket on them for immediate necessities) although ironically, that wasn't the prime cause of failure, even if it did fatigue the resilience of the plastic's integrity. It was the bitter cold causing the plastic to be brittle. That was the straw that snapped the frozen camel's back. Needless to say, I don't cycle this time of year.
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hw621
Senior Member
Well, according to TTC's latest 5-Year plan, tap & go won't come until 2019, and seems that it will be bank cards and mobile wallet only, i.e. no mobile Presto app...
ticky
Active Member
I don't know who constructed the Presto website system, but whoever it was deserves to be shot.
I've had a Presto card for a few years that gets used maybe twice a year. It is fairly beat up regardless and seeing as I didn't need a Metropass in January as I would be off work for a couple weeks, I decided to go buy one of the new and fancy black Presto cards. I purchased it and loaded it up when I got it at Shoppers. Went online to register it only to discover you have to use it first in order to "activate" it. Seems dumb, but okay.
Used it once and registered it online. Figured I would then get the balance of my old card (~$10) transferred to the new one. Started going through that process on the Presto website only to discover you can only transfer funds to a non-registered card. WTF? A second example of their backwards-ass system. Had no choice but to run down the balance on the old card (of course, my petty revenge was on my last trip my balance went into the negative by $2. Hah!)
Went back to the Presto website and marked the original card as lost so it could be removed from my profile. That didn't work and couldn't find any option to do so. Chatted with their online support and was told there was no way to delete the card from my profile and I would have to register a new profile if I didn't want to see it (which was obviously too late as I had already registered it). Now every time I log in to the site, I see the closed account by default. A great user interface that is!
What a gong show!
I've had a Presto card for a few years that gets used maybe twice a year. It is fairly beat up regardless and seeing as I didn't need a Metropass in January as I would be off work for a couple weeks, I decided to go buy one of the new and fancy black Presto cards. I purchased it and loaded it up when I got it at Shoppers. Went online to register it only to discover you have to use it first in order to "activate" it. Seems dumb, but okay.
Used it once and registered it online. Figured I would then get the balance of my old card (~$10) transferred to the new one. Started going through that process on the Presto website only to discover you can only transfer funds to a non-registered card. WTF? A second example of their backwards-ass system. Had no choice but to run down the balance on the old card (of course, my petty revenge was on my last trip my balance went into the negative by $2. Hah!)
Went back to the Presto website and marked the original card as lost so it could be removed from my profile. That didn't work and couldn't find any option to do so. Chatted with their online support and was told there was no way to delete the card from my profile and I would have to register a new profile if I didn't want to see it (which was obviously too late as I had already registered it). Now every time I log in to the site, I see the closed account by default. A great user interface that is!
What a gong show!
steveintoronto
Superstar
Well Ticky, we can't have criminals and ne'er-do-wells putting money that isn't yours onto your account now, can we?
It's beyond absurd.
I also considered doing as you state, running up a negative balance before dumping the card. Just make sure it's $6 or over to get back your sunk costs buying the card in the first place.
And as to the 'cost of buying' a card? They state in regs that they "retain the right of ownership" of the card. Which in itself, raises a host of questions. If they retain ownership, then why are they selling them?
More to come on this later...
crs1026
Superstar
The proper industry approved lanyards have a easy release in back that will part with even moderate pressure, to address the strangulation risk. I wore one for years at work, and I wasn't an Engineer even. Yeah, I wore it on the subway also, after a while you get so used to it you forget to take it off to go home. They sell them at Long & McQuade too, for woodwinds etc.
Very useful for Presto. My wallet stays in a safe pocket when I am in a crowded place like a subway. Not gonna pull it out to retrieve my P-card and risk being pickpocketed, or just having my credit cards fall out on the floor.
- Paul