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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

The Metropass was supposed to be phased out this year, but that plan clearly needs to be delayed until Metrolinx and TTC can sort out their issues with Presto reliability. TTC isn't a small town bus operator - its the third largest transit system on the continent. We can't risk having tens of thousands of stranded daily commuters because of Metrolinx's chronic inability to get their fare payment system working reliably.

Hopefully the second gen machines can get this sorted out, but I have zero faith that those machines will work reliably. We shall see.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
The Metropass was supposed to be phased out this year, but that plan clearly needs to be delayed until Metrolinx and TTC can sort out their issues with Presto reliability. TTC isn't a small town bus operator - its the third largest transit system on the continent. We can't risk having tens of thousands of stranded daily commuters because of Metrolinx's chronic inability to get their fare payment system working reliably.

Hopefully the second gen machines can get this sorted out, but I have zero faith that those machines will work reliably. We shall see.
Click to expand...

Those machines don't sell metropasses. If you want a pass you have to go online or go to one of the Shoppers Drug Mart outlets. This is a part of why Go Transit put the loyalty discount feature into Presto - aside from the high cost of their monthly passes, a lot of their passengers aren't going to buy one if it's a hassle. If any of the transit agencies want to be more user-friendly, they can automatically put people on monthly passes when they ride often enough and avoid the need to send people online (since the Shoppers option is only available in Toronto). It should be mandatory if you ask me.

Anyways, the TTC website now says that Metropasses "will be available for sale and use throughout 2017 and 2018", and implies that tokens will still be around until sometime in 2019.
 
amnesiajune said:
Those machines don't sell metropasses. If you want a pass you have to go online or go to one of the Shoppers Drug Mart outlets. This is a part of why Go Transit put the loyalty discount feature into Presto - aside from the high cost of their monthly passes, a lot of their passengers aren't going to buy one if it's a hassle. If any of the transit agencies want to be more user-friendly, they can automatically put people on monthly passes when they ride often enough and avoid the need to send people online (since the Shoppers option is only available in Toronto). It should be mandatory if you ask me.

Anyways, the TTC website now says that Metropasses "will be available for sale and use throughout 2017 and 2018", and implies that tokens will still be around until sometime in 2019.
Click to expand...
The reload machines will eventually be able to load a Metroppas on them the TTC is lowly phasing in Metroppass onto Preto cards the first couple of months they were only available online from the Presto website. Go Transit is the only one that uses a capping system for monthly passes as they don't have a monthly pass if you go to the presto website you can see what other cities have them.
 
RE: Questions about when an extra fare is charged (Presto/TTC).

I am a long-time monthly pass user who has just switched to a Presto card save money, since I was not using the pass more than about 25-30 trips a month (but many of those involved stopping at an intermediate point to do shopping etc. in usually 60-90 minute time span).

So I'm doing more walking than I did when I go shopping, and no longer briefly interrupt trips in one direction to do multiple things.

The information on how it all gets charged under Presto is surprisingly vague on the TTC website. Here are some unanswered questions about situations I never had to worry about when I used the monthly pass:

1) If I get off at the wrong TTC streetcar stop (as has happened in the past) and wait to reboard the next streetcar with the same route number to continue my trip, do I tap the card in the second streetcar? If not, will a fare enforcement officer on the second streetcar be able to successfully validate that I have already paid my fare on that route? I phoned the TTC help line and was told that if I tapped my card in the second streetcar, I would be charged a second fare, i.e. it would not be considered a transfer. So if I did not tap in the second vehicle, would I still have a valid fare when a transit fare enforcement officer examines my card?

2) Sometimes in summer on really hot days, I'd transfer from a streetcar to an air-conditioned bus (e.g. 501 --> 501 bus or 502 bus). Or transfer to a bus for other reasons, e.g. hoped-for speed advantage. I suppose that's no longer possible without a second fare charge. I would have assumed transfers between all routes going in the same direction be considered a valid transfer.

3) How does fare enforcement deal with the situation where the transit user has tapped the card on the first leg of the journey, but omitted tapping after the transfer point. If the trip start time registered on the card is still within the 90 minute window, is the user still travelling on a valid paid charge?

4) Why doesn't the TTC make life with Presto simple (since the cards record tap location and time): given a card with a most recent origin or transfer tap made at point X, then a subsequent tap at point Y is counted as a transfer if (a) the card was tapped at point X within the last 90 minutes, and (b) the transit route used on the new tap at point Y intersects the transit route used for the most recent tap at point X, i.e. the segments of the transit trip represented by points X and Y on the transit network are on the same transit route or, if different routes, then the two routes intersect at a point between points X and Y.

Or am I expecting logic in Toronto transit matters, where usually there is none?
 
DSC said:
YES,

All your points would be clear if TTC had timed transfers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the re[ly, but I'm still interested if people have any comments on the first three scenarios or questions. (I'm assuming that timed transfers will never be implemented due to "revenue loss", although the TTC Board might want to consider that transit is, or should be, a *convenient* public service elsewhere is the world, so strict bean-counting is only one objective among many.)
 
insertrealname said:
1) If I get off at the wrong TTC streetcar stop (as has happened in the past) and wait to reboard the next streetcar with the same route number to continue my trip, do I tap the card in the second streetcar? If not, will a fare enforcement officer on the second streetcar be able to successfully validate that I have already paid my fare on that route? I phoned the TTC help line and was told that if I tapped my card in the second streetcar, I would be charged a second fare, i.e. it would not be considered a transfer. So if I did not tap in the second vehicle, would I still have a valid fare when a transit fare enforcement officer examines my card?

2) Sometimes in summer on really hot days, I'd transfer from a streetcar to an air-conditioned bus (e.g. 501 --> 501 bus or 502 bus). Or transfer to a bus for other reasons, e.g. hoped-for speed advantage. I suppose that's no longer possible without a second fare charge. I would have assumed transfers between all routes going in the same direction be considered a valid transfer.

3) How does fare enforcement deal with the situation where the transit user has tapped the card on the first leg of the journey, but omitted tapping after the transfer point. If the trip start time registered on the card is still within the 90 minute window, is the user still travelling on a valid paid charge?

4) Why doesn't the TTC make life with Presto simple (since the cards record tap location and time): given a card with a most recent origin or transfer tap made at point X, then a subsequent tap at point Y is counted as a transfer if (a) the card was tapped at point X within the last 90 minutes, and (b) the transit route used on the new tap at point Y intersects the transit route used for the most recent tap at point X, i.e. the segments of the transit trip represented by points X and Y on the transit network are on the same transit route or, if different routes, then the two routes intersect at a point between points X and Y.
Click to expand...

1) In this case, think of a Presto Card as being identical to a cash/token fare with (or without) a transfer. Yes, you do have to pay (tap) on the second streetcar. Unfortunately, the TTC does not care that you got off at the wrong stop, you have broken the transfer rule of "one valid continuous trip in the same net direction with no stopovers" and you will, correctly, be charged twice. If you do not tap on the second streetcar the fare inspector can and most likely will fine you for failure to pay your fare.

2) You would have to tap on the second vehicle. With the oddities of Presto's implementation you would probably get a free transfer, but this is not guaranteed as the official transfer rules state you would be charged a second fare. Again, this is the exact same way it works with cash/tokens/transfers, as it has for decades.

3) You are required to tap upon boarding each vehicle. It does not matter that you tapped somewhere within the last 90 minutes. Fare enforcement could, and most likely would, fine you for failing to pay your fare in this case. If you plead your case as having been genuinely ignorant, and they see that you've never had any previous fare payment oddities recorded, they might let you off with a warning.

4) This is not even remotely simple. At that point the customer is required to perform the transfer table calculations in their head, which is absurd. The TTC's system should indeed be the one making those determinations, which requires you to tap at every point. While I agree that the TTC should move to a free 2-hour timed transfer, every single other 2-hour timed transfer transit system in the GTA or Ottawa with Presto requires customers to tap upon boarding each vehicle. Even customers with a monthly pass on YRT/Viva, OCTranspo, etc. or who have reached their monthly cap on GO, can be and often are fined for failure to pay their fares if they don't tap, regardless of having an unlimited-ride pass (or equivalent loyalty count) on their card. Yes, this is different from how the Metropass as a physical card worked, but this is extremely common for transit agencies around the world, not just the GTA--tap data is valuable to transit agencies, the trip statistics revealed by this data are a large part of why they invest in smart farecards as they provide lots of interesting information about ridership patterns on different routes.
 
OK, I really must thank you for taking up each and every question I had about Presto's rules. I had become so used to the simplicity (from a user's point of view, since 1985) of the Metropass card that the Presto card rules seem like a corset. But as you say, think of it as cash/tokens, and also of the advantage from the system (potentially user) perspective of having reliable transit usage information for planning purposes.

Maybe the TTC should think of introducing some kind of 24hr, 48hr and 72hr limited passes that can be loaded onto the card for days when a user might be using transit intensively. (Back in the 70's and 80's, the electro-mechanical ticket vending machines in most major European cities were issuing just such single and multi-day paper tickets. The TTC never made it into those decades, ticket vending machine-wise.)
 
insertrealname said:
Maybe the TTC should think of introducing some kind of 24hr, 48hr and 72hr limited passes that can be loaded onto the card for days when a user might be using transit intensively. (Back in the 70's and 80's, the electro-mechanical ticket vending machines in most major European cities were issuing just such single and multi-day paper tickets. The TTC never made it into those decades, ticket vending machine-wise.)
Click to expand...

Day passes are coming to Presto in the form of capping; what that means is once you've spent $12, or whatever the "day pass price" is, any further taps will be $0 for the remainder of the day. This is likely to be based on calendar days rather than 24hr periods, like the current day pass. This is actually an upgrade--with the current day pass you have to go and get it in advance, if you're just going around and you suddenly need to take extra trips you'll pay more, whereas Presto capping will mean you "automatically" get a "day pass" when you need it. And it works in reverse, if you buy a day pass but only ride 2 or 3 times you've wasted money, with Presto you don't have that risk.

48hr and 72hr passes are not likely to come. If you ride a ton for 3 days, you'll just get the daily ~$12 maximum on each of the 3 days, exactly as you would today buying 3 day passes (but with the above named advantages).

Weekly passes may or may not be coming, they're more nebulous at this point. I had heard that they would likely come via weekly capping, where after 3 or 4 "day passes" or equivalent spending across the 7 days, you'd pay $0 for the rest of the week; but more recently I heard they might do more traditional "load a weekly pass to your card in advance" system, or forego them altogether in favour of just the daily and monthly passes.

It would certainly be nice for some people to have a "pass" for hundreds of different possible periods of time, but it would get confusing for both riders and the TTC at some point to have so many different "fare products", even when they're virtual rather than physical. Already, on presto with the TTC we're looking at senior, adult, low-income adult, post-secondary student, youth, and child fares for: single rides, daily passes via automatic capping, weekly passes TBD via capping or loading, monthly passes via loading, annual MDP-type paid-up-front bundles of 12 monthly passes; and potentially tap in+out/on+off, timed transfers, fare by distance, fare by zone, fare by vehicle type, fare by time of day/day of week, fare by congestion/crowding, event fares, etc.
 
Interesting. I wonder, though, how much friction capping will have to overcome from the "but, think of the revenue loss" side of the eternal budget debates!
 
books said:
Including when boarding a bus in a subway station? After three months of Presto use there are still some points which I find confusing.
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You are definitely required to tap on boarding each vehicle when outside fare paid loops in stations. Some TTC resources have stated you need to tap even within the fare paid zone at a subway station, but it's not necessarily a strictly enforced requirement. Would be nice if they can get their story straight.
 
Megaton327 said:
You are definitely required to tap on boarding each vehicle when outside fare paid loops in stations. Some TTC resources have stated you need to tap even within the fare paid zone at a subway station, but it's not necessarily a strictly enforced requirement. Would be nice if they can get their story straight.
Click to expand...

It would be nice if the TTC came up with a simple set of rules for Presto, wouldn't it. :confused: I always tap when I get on the 510 streetcar inside Spadina station and it shows as a transfer (i.e. no charge), but I haven't been tapping when I board buses that are waiting in bays at subway stations, I guess I should start and see what happens.
 
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