News   Nov 01, 2024
 1.8K     11 
News   Nov 01, 2024
 2K     2 
News   Nov 01, 2024
 669     0 

Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

So will presto actually launch a standardized student card with a single ruleset or will they leave the regs down to the individual agency? I guess the former would be more useful with fare integration
What do you mean by "student" as what Presto defines as such is post-secondary:
[“Student” means a person living in an area served by a transit system who is:

  • In full attendance for a minimum period of eight consecutive weeks and not earning a salary from full-time employment while attending:
    1. a post-secondary educational institution; or
    2. a post-secondary vocational institution that is either public or registered under the Private Career Colleges Act. 2005 S.0. 2005, Chapter 28.]
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/fares/studentid.aspx

Secondary and primary school Presto concessions are local, set by each agency.
 
Yeah, it's the former except for post-secondary students. I'm assuming the TTC will do its own thing for post-secondary, since the TTC only offers it for schools in the city of Toronto but Go Transit offers it to students in schools anywhere as far away as Kingston, London and North Bay.

But then again, with how the TTC's Presto implementation is working out, who knows...
For the Metropass on Presto, or the plain vanilla Presto? When and if Student Metropass is offered on Presto...??? It's getting difficult knowing what's being referred to:
https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes...nd_children/Post_Secondary_Students/index.jsp
 
Secondary and primary school Presto concessions are local, set by each agency.

(A) There's no such thing as "secondary school" and "primary school" fares on any GTA transit system

(B) They're not local. They're system wide. When one transit system sets up your card for the senior, student or child fares, you pay that fare on every transit system. If your card is set up for post-secondary fares by Go Transit or MiWay, you pay the post-secondary fare for both of those and the adult fare everywhere else.
 
Not very. For one, it's usually not that long - it can be, but most card reader will have your transaction ready to apply to the card within a few hours. And regardless, practically every farecard system in the world has a similar wait time - instant reloading is expensive and unreliable.
I guess I thought it works like when paying by debit card for purchases. Either the transaction goes through (money is in your bank account) or does not go though. Similar to a credit card transaction. And the fact you cannot load it with cash at a TTC station is also surprising. But maybe not so much
 
I thought there were now machines at all (?most?) TTC stations to load cards.

It can't be similar to credit card transactions - they are too slow. Presto (and other similar cards) get past this by writing the balance, etc., to the card when you tap, so there are no network communications. They can't write to bank cards - and they don't have time to verify the bank card, other than compare to a list of invalid cards, etc. They'd have to simply read the bank card, assume it's good (if it's a reasonable range and not blacklisted), and at a later time sync the information to the back office, so that it can be batched to the card network.
 
...
Getting back to Monthly Passes on Presto Cards, sensibility would be that it is required to tap-on, tap-off *IF* the Privacy Laws are followed, and an option is given to the user to opt-in or out of a record of use and movements being kept. It is necessary to show POP, it is not necessary to itemize that transaction such that the holder's movements can be traced to the second and location while on the system.

https://www.prestocard.ca/en/privacy

Presto has some way to go to live up to their own claims on privacy.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2483101/c...s-could-be-another-tool-to-abusers-advocates/

The necessity for that information is rendered moot when you buy a MetroPass. It's bad enough that retailers are tracking as much about you as they can (albeit I decline all unnecessary games that most people fall for, the onus is on the individual to decline them). Don't accept cookies on-line save where they're necessary for an interactive website function, and don't let Big Brother tell you what to do when you don't have to.

www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15/presto-tracking-too-close-for-comfort
It only took a week for this to boil to the surface again:
Metrolinx has been quietly sharing Presto users’ information with police
The transit agency says it does not always require the police to produce a warrant or court order to obtain data about riders’ trips.

By Ben SpurrTransportation Reporter
Sat., June 3, 2017

Metrolinx has been quietly sharing Presto card users’ private travel records with the police, the Star has learned.

The transit agency has received 26 requests from police forces so far this year and granted 12 of them, according to Metrolinx, which is the provincial transit agency that operates the Presto fare card system used across the GTHA and in Ottawa. It is not known how many requests Metrolinx granted in previous years because the agency only began tracking them in 2016.

The agency says it does not always require law enforcement agencies to produce a warrant or court order to obtain detailed data about transit riders’ trips and doesn’t always notify customers that police have asked for the information.

Experts interviewed by the Star said the practice raises serious concerns about Metrolinx’s policies around the protection of transit users’ personal information.
[...]
Privacy experts said that although Metrolinx’s sharing of data about where and when people ride transit isn’t against the law, the agency isn’t being open enough about how it uses the information it collects from riders.

“It’s certainly a problem,” said Chris Parsons, a research associate at the Munk School of Global affairs who specializes in privacy and security.

While Metrolinx and Presto have both posted privacy policies, Parsons said that because they don’t explicitly state under which circumstances officials will give information to the police, “the public really has no idea what policies, processes or practices Metrolinx has in place or under what conditions it would provide that data.”

Parsons argued that in order to be transparent and accountable to the public, Metrolinx should explicitly and publicly state when it will share their data with police. It should also regularly publish statistics about the number of requests it receives and how they are handled.

Brenda McPhail, director of the privacy, technology and surveillance project at the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, agreed that Metrolinx needs to be more upfront about how it shares customers’ private data.

“Collecting that information gives the company a responsibility to tell people exactly what they’re doing,” she said, noting that data on transit users’ trips can tell police a lot about someone’s personal life.

McPhail also raised concerns that the agency has given out personal information without a court order.

Although there are some exceptions for safety reasons, “we would say that there should be a warrant for collecting that information,” she said.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...y-sharing-presto-information-with-police.html

Getting back to Metropass on Presto....there is no reason, unless the holder wishes, for the information to be recorded and traceable. It should read just as an electronic door pass key does.
 
Getting back to Metropass on Presto....there is no reason, unless the holder wishes, for the information to be recorded and traceable. It should read just as an electronic door pass key does.

If you don't want your information to be traceable, don't register your Presto card. Nobody, including you, will be able to link the card to you.

Benefits: If you happen to be one of the seventeen criminal suspects in an urban area of five million that the police ask for help finding, it'll be a little bit harder for them to do so.

Drawbacks: No balance protection, no monthly passes, no ability to use automatic card loading, and if you go missing Metrolinx won't be able to help find you.
 
If you don't want your information to be traceable, don't register your Presto card. Nobody, including you, will be able to link the card to you.
Your degree of naivety is astounding, but as you were.

The nice man will around to check your sub-cutaneous ID chip and your meds momentarily. Please enjoy your trip, and remember to conform at all times. Resistance is futile.

So according to you, each card doesn't have a unique identifying chip code? The analogy would be riding around in a car that is not registered to you, but the licence plate is traceable through the entire trip.

Whether you like it or not Amnesia, there appears to be a violation of the law, if not in detail, then in intent.

Maybe your freedom means nothing to you, it does to a lot of others. And it's being slowly eroded. Canada is actually a laggard in protecting this, far behind the US even.
 
Last edited:
Ok. I'm not gonna be ridiculously dramatic. I really don't care if Presto Card data is used to help find missing people and people accused of violent crimes. I think it's good to have a system that helps find those people, and we aren't going to turn into Nazi Germany because twelve people's public transit trips were given to the police.
 
Ok. I'm not gonna be ridiculously dramatic. I really don't care if Presto Card data is used to help find missing people and people accused of violent crimes. I think it's good to have a system that helps find those people, and we aren't going to turn into Nazi Germany because twelve people's public transit trips were given to the police.
If they get a warrant, fine, that's the basis of the guarantee of our rights.
 
The TTC student fare is subsidized by the school boards in the city of Toronto so that's why it has always traditionally been for student in the city of Toronto only.
my recollection is that the boards have some sort of arrangement with TTC to buy tickets (special ed older kids who aren't bussed I think?) but no sort of subsidy to the city as above - the Province doesn't provide that sort of money to the Boards
 
(Re photos on presto)
The kibosh has been put on that story, for good reason. It's not compliant with Ontario Law. Asking for separate ID might be, but that is still contentious. TTC brass have probably been told by Presto's lawyers to drop the matter before it becomes a PR disaster.
odd to see you make an assertion without links to back it up. So - what provision of provincial law forbids the TTC from requiring its supplier, Presto, to supply photo-integrated pass media if that is in the scope of the contracts between the parties? if it is something Presto doesn't want to do, they will just say "not in the contract" no lawyers required.
 
Can someone explain to me how YRT and TTC fares in regards to presto? I haven't taken it in years and may need to take it tomorrow.

On the TTC website, it says I cannot pay my YRT portion of the fare via presto and it must be token + supplement or YRT ticket.

On the YRT website, it says presto paid fares cannot be issued paper transfers. So how the heck do I get on a TTC bus if I transfer from Viva or YRT to ttc using presto?
 
what provision of provincial law forbids the TTC from requiring its supplier, Presto, to supply photo-integrated pass media if that is in the scope of the contracts between the parties?
Because interpreting the contract appears to be the issue, although without that contract being published, it's difficult for public examination.

Presto does not have provincial legislation allowing it to be used for the purpose of photo-id. The photo-card does. And to apply for a provincial photo-card, these are necessary:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/acceptable-identity-documents

An institution can ask for a person to identify themselves when using a Presto Card, but for the Province to do so, (and Presto is and always will be a provincial creature) they have to meet their own requirements.

It is allowable to have a code on the Presto card that links to a local data-base allowing a concession determined by that jurisdiction. (the jurisdiction already having determined eligibility) So the photo itself is not on the card to see, and not digitally encoded on the card. Only the concession code is. Which, btw, conflicts with the "transferable" aspect of the card.

So even as it stands, Presto faces some questionable legal conundrums.
 
Last edited:
So according to you, each card doesn't have a unique identifying chip code?
Yes, the card is of course identifiable and traceable, but not the user - unless your card is seized by police. I know at least one workplace that provides transit to its employees and hands out anonymous presto cards.
 

Back
Top