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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

EastYorkTTCFan said:
It was something from Brad Ross on twitter a few months back when it was first proposed that they wanted to wait until the start of the school year to do it it may even be september 2018 before they do it.
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The claim was from mid-July last year. I suggest you produce some proof of your claim.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
Back in March one of the councilors on the board mentioned that they ahdn't had a meeting with the metrolinx board in over a year ...
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That's just the boards. Who have only ever met together once - in history. They meet to ratify decisions. The decisions are made at staff level, and the boards will either then approve the decisions, or have given staff the power to make the decisions.

TTC and Metrolinx staff meet frequently.
 
steveintoronto said:
Because I wish to see a Bylaw stating it, and examine the legality of that. That is how our system of law works, not just "doing as you're told".
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Is it?

If you read By-law 1 carefully, it clearly says that you can't give transfers to someone with a PrestoCard. But they operated last year by saying people with PrestoCards should take transfers. Even though they could be fined, according to the By-law.

So should people have done what they are told, and take a transfer, or follow the By-Law?
 
nfitz said:
So should people have done what they are told, and take a transfer, or follow the By-Law?
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People should have done what seems sensible, and if ticketed, taken it to court where the charge would have been tossed. And that's my point. Do what you feel is legally rational in the absence of a sensibly constructed legal reference, and if challenged, allow the court to rule on it. In almost all cases, a Justice or Judge will side with the defendant if the charge isn't based on clear instruction or definition, or violates other areas of law.

Getting back to Monthly Passes on Presto Cards, sensibility would be that it is required to tap-on, tap-off *IF* the Privacy Laws are followed, and an option is given to the user to opt-in or out of a record of use and movements being kept. It is necessary to show POP, it is not necessary to itemize that transaction such that the holder's movements can be traced to the second and location while on the system.

[...]
Personal Information
Personal information that may be collected by PRESTO in connection with your use of the PRESTO Card is recorded information that identifies individuals and may include:

  1. information relating to financial transactions in which you have been involved or will be involved with PRESTO, including your credit card number and your bank account information;
  2. any identifying number, symbol or other particular identifier assigned to you by PRESTO;
  3. your address or telephone number;
  4. correspondence sent to PRESTO by you that is implicitly or explicitly of a private or confidential nature, and replies to that correspondence that would reveal the contents of the original correspondence; and/or
  5. your name where it appears with other personal information relating to you or where the disclosure of your name would reveal other personal information about you.
In connection with the PRESTO Services to be provided, personal information may be collected by PRESTO from you. As well, PRESTO may collect information about you through your use of the PRESTO Card.

PRESTO limits the amount and type of personal information collected from you to only the personal information that is required for the purposes outlined below, or the purposes identified to you when PRESTO requests your personal information. PRESTO will not use your personal information for any other purpose without first obtaining your consent.

PRESTO’s primary purpose for collecting your personal information is to provide the services and/or products requested by you. In addition, you agree that your personal information may be used, among other things, to:

  1. open and set-up your PRESTO Account;
  2. verify your identity and/or your eligibility for certain PRESTO Services;
  3. mail to you your PRESTO Card and other such items or communications;
  4. operate the PRESTO Services effectively;
  5. administer loyalty programs associated with the use of the PRESTO Services;
  6. protect you and PRESTO from error and fraud
  7. better understand your needs and eligibility for products and services offered by PRESTO or the Service Providers;
  8. communicate to you those products and services that may be of interest to you;
  9. improve the products and/or services offered to you; and
  10. comply with legal and regulatory requirements.
Consent
Your consent to PRESTO’s collection, use and/or disclosure of your personal information in accordance with this Privacy Policy and FIPPA may be obtained from you expressly or impliedly. Express consent may be obtained orally or in writing. Implied consent may be obtained based on some action you have taken, or an action you decided not to take, which action or inaction could reasonably be considered by PRESTO as evidencing your consent.

You have the right at any time to withdraw your consent by providing written notice to PRESTO, provided that there are no legal requirements to prevent this. However, if you withdraw your consent, you may no longer be eligible to use or be provided with some or all of the PRESTO Services, including use of the PRESTO Card.

Limiting Collection
In accordance with FIPPA, the collection of your personal information by PRESTO is limited to that which is necessary for the purposes identified herein. All personal information is collected by PRESTO in a fair and lawful manner.

Limiting Use, Disclosure
PRESTO shall only use or disclose your personal information in accordance with FIPPA. PRESTO will not, without your consent, sell or trade to, or share with any third party, your personal information for purposes other than those for which it was collected or for a purpose consistent with such purposes. However, you agree that PRESTO may disclose your personal information to third parties without your further consent in circumstances where: a. PRESTO has received your previous consent to such disclosure, including for the purposes set out in this Privacy Policy; b. disclosure to a third party is necessary in order to provide services to you; c. it is required or permitted by law or pursuant to a court order; d. PRESTO sells or transfers its business to a third party or restructures; or e. disclosure is reasonably required to a bona fide third party potential investor of PRESTO;

[...]
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https://www.prestocard.ca/en/privacy

Presto has some way to go to live up to their own claims on privacy.

Compass, PRESTO transit passes could be ‘another tool to abusers’: advocates
By Leslie Young National Online Journalist, Investigative Global News

[...]
Customer safety is the top priority for Metrolinx, the agency that runs the PRESTO system, said Anne Marie Aikins, senior manager of media relations at Metrolinx, and a former executive director and spokesperson for rape crisis centres.

“For PRESTO, the reason that it does track your whereabouts is so you can see whether you were charged too much, whether you got the discount that you were wanting, that sort of thing.” [...]
Click to expand...
http://globalnews.ca/news/2483101/c...s-could-be-another-tool-to-abusers-advocates/

The necessity for that information is rendered moot when you buy a MetroPass. It's bad enough that retailers are tracking as much about you as they can (albeit I decline all unnecessary games that most people fall for, the onus is on the individual to decline them). Don't accept cookies on-line save where they're necessary for an interactive website function, and don't let Big Brother tell you what to do when you don't have to.

Presto tracking a privacy issue? By Jenny Yuen, Toronto Sun First posted: Wednesday, February 15, 2017

[...] Ann Cavoukian, the executive director of the Privacy and Big Data Institute at Ryerson University, said consent to tie a card user’s identity with their route being tracked by Metrolinx needs to be explicitly noted so customers can opt out if they so choose.

“If I use tokens, that’s anonymous and that’s how I choose to be, but if we’re forced to switch to Presto in a year or so, I sure as heck don’t want my activities tracked,” Cavoukian said. “It’s the location and times and the association with an identifiable individual. And from that, you can make certain insinuations. I’m not suggesting they’re going to do that, but the point is you tread lightly.”
[...]
Cavoukian, the former Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario, added Metrolinx, a government agency that manages public transit in the Golden Horseshoe region, including Toronto, should indicate what information they will track up front to the customer.

“Privacy is all about control – control over the uses of your personal information, and that’s why you’ve got to seek the user’s consent,” she said. “I’m betting, they don’t lead with a big explanation of what they’re going to do with it and that they might be able to track. I don’t object to the use of the data if it’s anonymized. You can’t use this in identifiable form and assume it’s fine.”[...]
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www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15/presto-tracking-too-close-for-comfort
 
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steveintoronto said:
People should have done what seems sensible, and if ticketed, taken it to court where the charge would have been tossed. And that's my point. Do what you feel is legally rational in the absence of a sensibly constructed legal reference, and if challenged, allow the court to rule on it. In almost all cases, a Justice or Judge will side with the defendant if the charge isn't based on clear instruction or definition, or violates other areas of law.

Getting back to Monthly Passes on Presto Cards. Sensibility would be that it is required to tap-on, tap-off *IF* the Privacy Laws are followed, and an option is given to the user to opt-in or out of a record of use and movements being kept. It is necessary to show POP, it is not necessary to itemize that transaction such that the holder's movements can be traced to the second while on the system.


https://www.prestocard.ca/en/privacy

Presto has some way to go to live up to their own claims on privacy.

Compass, PRESTO transit passes could be ‘another tool to abusers’: advocates
By Leslie Young National Online Journalist, Investigative Global News
http://globalnews.ca/news/2483101/c...s-could-be-another-tool-to-abusers-advocates/

Presto tracking a privacy issue? | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
www.torontosun.com/2017/02/15/presto-tracking-too-close-for-comfort
Click to expand...

Ok so......? Seriously I'm starting to get tired of these outlier tin foil hat paranoids who think that everything is a recipe for abuse, breach of privacy and harassment. I've never heard of a case where somebody deliberately hacked into someones account, checked their card history and used it for criminal intent. There's seriously many more easy ways to get the same result. My sympathies to the victims of domestic violence and whatnot but if youre having nightmares about using a smart card because of that, don't use it or see counselling. please don't force the rest population who have had zero issues ever to be inconvenienced because of something very very unlikely that may occur.
 
cplchanb said:
Ok so......? Seriously I'm starting to get tired of these outlier tin foil hat paranoids who think that everything is a recipe for abuse, breach of privacy and harassment. I've never heard of a case where somebody deliberately hacked into someones account, checked their card history and used it for criminal intent. There's seriously many more easy ways to get the same result. My sympathies to the victims of domestic violence and whatnot but if youre having nightmares about using a smart card because of that, don't use it or see counselling. please don't force the rest population who have had zero issues ever to be inconvenienced because of something very very unlikely that may occur.
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Just do as you're told cplchanb. And the Russians had nothing to do with Trump's campaign either, Comrade.

Hey, if you don't want to take privacy of information seriously, that's your business. But don't lecture to those who do, and have every right to. A MetroPass doesn't require any tracking other than to show POP.

Here's how poorly Canada compares to other nations when it comes to protecting privacy and freedom of information:
[...]
According to the RTI Rating, Canada’s Access to Information Act ranks a very poor 59th place globally from among 102 countries with right to information (RTI) laws, just behind Rwanda and Mongolia, and far behind leading countries such as India, Slovenia and Mexico. This is down from 51st place just three years ago and is likely to decline further as other countries improve their laws while our 30-year old act continues to languish.

The federal legislation is at the very bottom of the pack in Canada, alongside that of New Brunswick and Alberta. But other Canadian jurisdictions do not fare much better.

At least that was the situation until June 1, when a new and vastly improved law came into force in Newfoundland. That law stands head and shoulders above its Canadian counterparts with a score of 111 points out of a possible maximum of 150 on the RTI Rating, putting it in 15th place globally, closer to where most Canadians would expect to see us. [...]
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http://thechronicleherald.ca/letter...to-59th-of-102-nations-on-information-freedom

Real 'paranoid tin-hat stuff'.

I'm reminded of the joke: "How do you get 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool?"
Answer: "Everyone out!". It's no joke...
 
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nfitz said:
If you read By-law 1 carefully, it clearly says that you can't give transfers to someone with a PrestoCard.
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I'm studying it right now:
https://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/TTC_Bylaws/index.jsp

I can find no mention of what you claim beyond these:
[...]
2.10 No person paying a fare using cash, ticket or token, shall be entitled to more than one transfer.

2.11 No person paying a fare using a form of fare media not mentioned in Section 2.10 shall be entitled to a transfer.

2.12 No person shall use, or attempt to use a transfer unless the transfer has been issued to that person upon payment of a fare media in accordance with Section 2.10.
[...]

In fact, as worded, the ByLaw indicates that a Metropass needs only to be produced when asked as POP. The mention of "transfer" is totally yours. The discussion was "Metropass". The fare is already "paid"...the key word through the whole ByLaw. The closest I can find to a Presto Card is "electronic fare card" and it appears three times. In the definitions only.

Is the TTC now posting a ByLaw that is out of date? It could well be. It rather indicates a lot about how the TTC is run.

[The forgoing restated By-law No. 1 is hereby consented to and passed by the Commissioners of the TTC, this 21st day of January, 2009, pursuant to Subsections 143 and 366 of the City of Toronto Act.

I hereby certify this to be a true copy of TTC By-law No. 1 as approved by the Commissioners of the TTC on the 21st day of January, 2009.]

This is reminiscent of the "two hour window or not on Presto Cards" debate. Since the TTC doesn't state it, it can't be enforced.

RE: Metropass:
[...]
The TTC Metropass is transferable, however the pass can only be transferred after a person using it has exited the TTC transit system. No "Pass Back" allowed. Penalty for misuse.
[...]
Metropass Benefits
  • Transferable (Adults require no photo ID, Post-Secondary Students require TTC Photo ID to prove eligibility, Seniors/Students require photo ID to prove age eligibility)
  • Access through Automatic Entrances
  • Unlimited travel on all TTC services (Extra fare required for Downtown Express routes or contracted routes operated by the TTC outside the City of Toronto);
  • Monthly Downtown Express stickers are available at all subway stations;
  • Tax Credit for Public Transit: Information on the Federal Tax Credit for TTC Pass Purchasers.
    This program will be discontinued as of July 1, 2017.
Metropass Conditions of Use

  • Valid only if the validation sticker is removed.
  • Valid only for the month/year shown on front of pass.
  • Must be in the possession of the customer at all times during a trip.
  • May only be transferred to another customer at the completion of a trip - No ‘Pass Back’ allowed.
  • Does not entitle the customer to obtain a transfer.
  • Must be clearly displayed to TTC employees when used and shall be surrendered for inspection to TTC employees upon request when on TTC vehicles or premises. Is good for unlimited travel on all regular TTC services. Extra fare required for Downtown Express routes or contracted routes operated by the TTC outside the City of Toronto. Remains property of the TTC and may be confiscated without refund if the holder violates any laws, TTC By-law No. 1 or alters or abuses this pass. Is not refundable.
  • Issued by authority of the Toronto Transit Commission.
  • Post-Secondary Students: Is only valid with a Post-Secondary TTC Student Photo ID.
  • Seniors (65 years or older): Valid with a TTC Senior Photo ID or government issued photo ID.
  • Students (13 to 15 years old): No ID required.
  • Students (16 to 19 years old): Valid with High School ID or government issued photo ID. NOT valid for Post-Secondary Students. ]
https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Passes/Metropass/Metropass_details.jsp

Metropass on Presto Card:
[...]
What is the difference between a TTC Monthly Pass on PRESTO and a Metropass?

The only difference between a TTC Monthly Pass on PRESTO and a Metropass is that you need to tap a PRESTO card on a card reader instead of showing it to a collector, operator or Transit Fare Inspector, or swiping it at a turnstile. Both provide unlimited travel for a month. [...]
https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/PRESTO/Monthly_Pass_FAQ.jsp
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There's a few problems with the wording re conflict with previous Metropass conditions. I can see why they're just issuing "a few thousand" as a trial. No indication if these are also tracked or not, and that being stated in conditions and terms, which I can't find published.
 
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W. K. Lis said:
Compare with New York City. See link and link.

Student MetroCards

Schools distribute student MetroCards to eligible students at the beginning of each semester of the school year. Student MetroCards are distinct from MetroCards used by the general public.

Student MetroCards are:
  • Only for use by the student to whom it was issued.
  • Good for travel to and from school and school-related activities between 5:30 a.m. and 8:30 p.m., only on days when the student’s school is in session.
  • Good for three trips each school day. Three trips allows a student to travel to school, from school to an after school activity, and then from that activity to home. A special four-trip student MetroCard is available on request for pupils whose trip to school requires multiple transfers.
  • Good for an entire school semester.
A full fare student MetroCard allows an eligible student to travel to and from school and school-related activities by bus and subway. On most trips, a student can also transfer free between the bus and the subway, between a bus and another bus, or between the subway and a bus. You cannot transfer between M27 and M50; M31 and M57; M96 and M106; Bx40 and Bx42; M1, M2, M3, and M4; Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue buses; M101, M102, and M103; Lexington Avenue and Third Avenue buses; Bx1 and Bx2; and a bus going south on Grand Concourse and one going north.

A half fare student MetroCard allows an eligible student to travel to and from school and school-​
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I'm interested in the student Presto card, not whatever a MetroCard is.
 
So will presto actually launch a standardized student card with a single ruleset or will they leave the regs down to the individual agency? I guess the former would be more useful with fare integration
 
cplchanb said:
So will presto actually launch a standardized student card with a single ruleset or will they leave the regs down to the individual agency? I guess the former would be more useful with fare integration
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It's always been the former so far. And given that TTC is already telling people to go to Shopper's and/or GO to get child and student cards, then I can't see them changing - though I suppose if they did, they'd have to exchange any existing cards, free of charge or something.
 
nfitz said:
It's always been the former so far. And given that TTC is already telling people to go to Shopper's and/or GO to get child and student cards, then I can't see them changing - though I suppose if they did, they'd have to exchange any existing cards, free of charge or something.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's the former except for post-secondary students. I'm assuming the TTC will do its own thing for post-secondary, since the TTC only offers it for schools in the city of Toronto but Go Transit offers it to students in schools anywhere as far away as Kingston, London and North Bay.

But then again, with how the TTC's Presto implementation is working out, who knows...
 
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