jeffreym
Active Member
??? No it isn't. They're there because the TTC ould have to pay them disability(?) pay anyhow if they were just sitting at home doing nothing.
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??? No it isn't. They're there because the TTC ould have to pay them disability(?) pay anyhow if they were just sitting at home doing nothing.
wopchop
Building Toronto
Maybe I'm mistaken in thinking it's a threat, but a lot of cities with automated fare collection have done away with or significantly reduced the number of booth collectors (ie. MTA in NYC).
Would that not be a long-term fear of the Union?
I admit, I could be totally off base here.
Would that not be a long-term fear of the Union?
I admit, I could be totally off base here.
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jeffreym
Active Member
Well the people who are acting as collectors because of injuries would still be paid.. the TTC doesn't actually hire anyone to be collectors
wopchop
Building Toronto
Right, I realize that. But what I'm suggesting is that automated fare collection might lower the pool of available collector jobs. Instead of a collector at every station, you might see a collector at half the stations. Or three quarters. Or whatever. This seems like it might concern the Union. Maybe not, though.
k10ery
Senior Member
That I don't know. There's no line item in the YRT 2011 budget for payments to Presto, nor any note about revenue reductions due to netting it out.
Since the contract with Accenture is fixed price not transactions based, I don't think Presto would be charging transit agencies per transaction, do you?
k10ery
Senior Member
Yes, I think that's what TTC drivers have been texting about!
Seriously, the TTC's assessments of Smart Cards never project any savings from eliminating fare collector jobs. I think the reality would be different.
TTC also claims it only spent $34 million on fare collector salaries, pensions, and benefits. Since the minimum is over $100,000 per year including pension and benefits (many earn much more) that means they have less than 300 full time positions in the fare booths. How is that possible, with 70 stations, most of which are staffed by multiple people for up to 18 hours per day, 7 days a week???
I'm saying I think the cost savings could be large, and the TTC wants to pretend otherwise.
Jonny5
Senior Member
Assuming an average of two collectors per station at all operating hours earning $26 per hour you are still under $24million. Add benefits and crash gate salaries and you get the rest. The TTC's numbers are clearly accurate. Yours are clearly fantasy.
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k10ery
Senior Member
Then add sick days, overtime rates, payroll taxes, pension costs, and supervisors and you will get the real number.
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Jonny5
Senior Member
Yes, the real number in the audited financial statemets. $34 million. Thank you for cnfirming all it incudes.
k10ery
Senior Member
C'mon!
nfitz
Superstar
The minimum what is over $100,000 a year? That's well beyond the minimum salary. What are you referring to?
Electrify
Senior Member
Even if/when collectors do go, I still think there should be someone at the stations. Maybe a security guard or two, or even still have collectors at heavily used stations to provide a human face to sales and customer service.
Still Waters
New Member
A couple of points. The capital cost of implementing Presto at the TTC is approx. $400 million, with the province providing a subsidy that would reduce the cost to the TTC's budget to approx. $200 million. The costs are huge compared to the other transit systems which are a fraction of the TTC's size in every way. From the very beginning of Presto, TTC was the elephant in the room that they preferred to "deal with later." I guess "later" is now and, surprise, surprise, there's no money.
The ongoing operating costs of Presto at the TTC will be borne by the TTC in its operating budget. I can't recall the estimated numbers, but it is a lot more than what is currently spent on fare collection. The Station Collectors (who make the same as an Operator-- approx. $60,000 per yr at the top end, excluding overtime) would be replaced by Fare Inspectors and there would have to be a lot more of them roaming the system. In addition, you would have a whole new group of IT staff maintaining software and computers, plus the maintenance of the electronic readers. Whether or not this is contracted all or in part to Accenture/Metrolinx, the cost is covered entirely by the individual transit agencies, not by provincial subsidy. The TTC's current fare system, though antiquated, is actually pretty low-maintenance and associated costs are relatively low, compared to the new electronic system. The new system will cost a LOT more than the old one. Open Payments, where the private sector does it all, at an annual cost of approx. $100-150 million to the TTC is a superior, off-the-shelf system and exactly the kind of public-private partnership that is realistic and could actually work in the public's favour. Ironic that the Mayor supports the customized, government-does-it-all Presto option, while at the same time, pushing for P3's where they make little or no sense (suburban subways). It's all backwards.
The ongoing operating costs of Presto at the TTC will be borne by the TTC in its operating budget. I can't recall the estimated numbers, but it is a lot more than what is currently spent on fare collection. The Station Collectors (who make the same as an Operator-- approx. $60,000 per yr at the top end, excluding overtime) would be replaced by Fare Inspectors and there would have to be a lot more of them roaming the system. In addition, you would have a whole new group of IT staff maintaining software and computers, plus the maintenance of the electronic readers. Whether or not this is contracted all or in part to Accenture/Metrolinx, the cost is covered entirely by the individual transit agencies, not by provincial subsidy. The TTC's current fare system, though antiquated, is actually pretty low-maintenance and associated costs are relatively low, compared to the new electronic system. The new system will cost a LOT more than the old one. Open Payments, where the private sector does it all, at an annual cost of approx. $100-150 million to the TTC is a superior, off-the-shelf system and exactly the kind of public-private partnership that is realistic and could actually work in the public's favour. Ironic that the Mayor supports the customized, government-does-it-all Presto option, while at the same time, pushing for P3's where they make little or no sense (suburban subways). It's all backwards.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
PRESTO has nothing to do with fare collectors vs ticket inspectors. That is determined by the fare system (POP vs PAYE), not the method of payment (Presto vs Open Payment vs Tokens). If we wanted to minimize costs for an electronic payment system, we would keep the current Pay As You Enter fare system but make all transfers, tickets, passes and cards machine readable. We would not need ticket collectors (or fare inspectors) at all, although we could keep some at high traffic stations. Eliminating all those $60 000/year jobs should pay for a big chunk of those electronics costs.
k10ery
Senior Member
Nfitz: to estimate full payroll cost take $60K base salary, add 20% for benefits, 8% for vacation, 5% for sick time, and 25% for pension. This is conservative as the average ttc worker is 10 years from retirement age of 60. That gets you over 100K. It does not include overtime. 25 or so fare collectors are on the sunshine list and I bet many others are just off it.
To the other guy who objected I'm just saying that labour is expensive. It doesn't mean they don't deserve what they get. But if ttc can economize and improve pax experience then why not?
To the other guy who objected I'm just saying that labour is expensive. It doesn't mean they don't deserve what they get. But if ttc can economize and improve pax experience then why not?