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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

In the most basic of systems it would show on charge of $3.25 every tap instantly on your credit card and you would get a transfer from a machine. If open-payment was tied into a rules engine like Presto but unlike Presto not tied into extra on card requirements it could charge one amount each day and eliminate the need for paper transfers if you are pay as you go. If you registered your cards and purchased a monthly pass you could be charged one amount each month and your card wouldn't be charged daily. They could do the declining fare value method too. That would all be defined in the rules engine.

The value of Presto "should" be that they have defined a good rules engine which perhaps could be leveraged to enhance open-payments based systems. Unfortunately from what has been seen their rules engine is poorly designed with discounts causing negative values and they have put additional requirements onto the card itself. If Presto had been properly designed their first generation readers would be able to read credit and debit cards and their Presto cards would have RFID functionality identical to the tap-n-go credit cards but with a different ID set.

There are some cases where you might actually want a Presto card (i.e. for children or gift cards) but that flexibility shouldn't mean everyone is forced to get a Presto card to use tap-n-go. When you go to Starbucks, Petro Canada, the Bay, etc you aren't forced to have a card specifically for that company, you can get a Starbucks Card or a Bay Card if you want, or you can use your credit or debit card. When you swipe a registered Starbucks Card you get different pricing automatically much like how open-payments in transit would behave differently depending on the card tapped. They swipe the cards all through the same magnetic stripe reader at Starbucks or the Bay. That is open-payments the magnetic stripe swipe plus signature version. With RFID it works the same way but with tap-n-go.
 
EnviroTO said:
In the most basic of systems it would show on charge of $3.25 every tap instantly on your credit card and you would get a transfer from a machine. If open-payment was tied into a rules engine like Presto but unlike Presto not tied into extra on card requirements it could charge one amount each day and eliminate the need for paper transfers if you are pay as you go. If you registered your cards and purchased a monthly pass you could be charged one amount each month and your card wouldn't be charged daily. They could do the declining fare value method too. That would all be defined in the rules engine.
Click to expand...

One of the main changes the credit card companies made was to not require immediate authorization of a charge for small charges. The company, like tim hortons, is allowed to hold the charges and accumulate them into a bigger transaction later on. That also means they need to have the equipment to record and consolidate charges for later processing including any kind of additional processing (reductions) you may wish to do.

The easiest method for doing this for the TTC is to initiate a hold for $MAX_FARE * 4 on the card and finalize at the end of the day for the number of rides and the fare we want to charge them. 4 fares is a day pass and a vast majority of riders would have the room for a day pass on their card, provided it was cleared or finalized one the same day.

This is similar to a hotel taking an extra $50 on your card for incidentals. It temporarily impacts you ability to spend that amount; with that value becoming an exact charge when you check out and the cleaning ladies have been through the room.
 
I know as I have been writing credit card authorization software. I wouldn't bother with authorizing some maximum fare but would rather authorize for a full fare on each tap. At the end of the day most of those authorizations could be cancelled as they were tap outs, transfers, etc. In the case of pass holders the tap would be approved with no dollar amount authorized as the card would be looked up in the system and be found to have a pass attached for that date. You could buy your day pass online with your credit card and attach that day pass to other debit cards, credit cards, or even a transit specific card that follows the same design as a debit card but doesn't require a balance if a pass has been attached. To get a child or senior fare your card would likely need to be registered by an agent or driver after showing ID and the card would likely need to have a name on it (passing around cards which have discounted fares attached would not be permitted).
 
What would the cost be to throw out all these fare payment systems including cash and allow every one to ride free?

No fare boxs, ticket takers, turnstiles or hordes of people sorting and counting would have to be cost efficient.

How much do you think the municipal tax rate would increase as a percentage of what is now paid?
 
EnviroTO said:
I know as I have been writing credit card authorization software. I wouldn't bother with authorizing some maximum fare but would rather authorize for a full fare on each tap. At the end of the day most of those authorizations could be cancelled as they were tap outs, transfers, etc.
Click to expand...

I'm a little rusty as I've been doing telecom billing for far too many years now but wouldn't authorizing each fare individually result in higher transaction charges for a typical round-trip as there would be two individual charges for $2.50 instead of a single transaction for $5?

Perhaps it doesn't matter. TTC is large enough they may be able to negotiate an agreement to drive transaction charges down just as I suspect they will get the standard system for free + PRESTO customization charges for being a "MasterCard city".
 
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spider said:
What would the cost be to throw out all these fare payment systems including cash and allow every one to ride free?

No fare boxs, ticket takers, turnstiles or hordes of people sorting and counting would have to be cost efficient.

How much do you think the municipal tax rate would increase as a percentage of what is now paid?
Click to expand...

In 2008, the TTC operating budget was almost $1.2 billion dollars, while budgeted fare revenue was $872 million. So, the cost of allowing everyone to ride for free would have been $872 million more than the subsidy, all things constant.

BUT, we know that all things will not remain constant. Demand would skyrocket and supply would have to increase to keep pace. A doubling of service might not be out of the question, so that puts the annual cost in the multi-billion dollar range.
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...sked-to-probe-transit-smartcard-contract?bn=1

Ontario auditor asked to probe transit smartcard contract

An Ontario watchdog is being asked to look into a government contract involving a new fare system for public transit in the Toronto area.

The New Democrats are asking auditor general Jim McCarter to investigate the government’s $250-million contract with Accenture to develop and implement the so-called PRESTO system.

NDP critic Cheri DiNovo says the implementation of the smart-card system has been delayed and is over budget.

She says the Toronto Transit Commission chairman has also expressed concern that the PRESTO fare system may be outdated because other cities are shifting to systems that use debit and credit cards.

DiNovo says she wants McCarter to look into the full financial liabilities of the contract, and whether it will bind the government to future payments.

The smart card system is already being rolled out to help riders transfer between transit systems in the Greater Toronto Area, but the TTC is spending more than $1 million to study a separate system that allows commuters to use debit and credit cards.

Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne has blasted TTC managers for considering a new fare system and called the study a complete waste of money.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-leaves-big-smoke-in-the-dust/article1659917/

TransLink smartcard plan leaves Big Smoke in the dust

Vancouver’s off-the-shelf technology to be ready by 2013 and cost $80-million, far less than Toronto’s homemade Presto system


John Lorinc

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail Published on Monday, Aug. 02, 2010 11:04PM EDT

Vancouver's plan for a smartcard system for TransLink is something to be admired in Toronto, where efforts to bring in a smartcard are mired in a battle between the provincial government and the local transit commission.

As Toronto politicians and Ontario’s Metrolinx agency trade barbs about competing fare card systems, Greater Vancouver’s regional transit authority has quietly pressed ahead with an efficient plan to purchase “off-the-shelf” contactless smartcard technology for its entire network of buses and commuter rail lines and the Skytrain.

And here’s the zinger: TransLink expects to pay $80-million for the system and have it deployed by 2013. Greater Toronto’s homemade Presto system has cost $250-million so far, and the price could still rise.

In a request for proposals released in early July, TransLink also told potential bidders to ensure their systems can be adapted to so-called “open fare,” so riders can pay with their bank or credit cards, said Fred Cummings, the agency’s vice-president of engineering and implementation. “People will not be able to access the system without a smartcard.” The goal, he added, is to go to a cashless system.

TransLink oversees all of Greater Vancouver’s transit agencies as well as its major road network, but it only serves about a third of the riders handled by Ontario’s GO Transit and the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC). Yet the agency managed to avoid the delays and budget problems dogging Metrolinx’s Presto card system, as well as the unknowns associated with an as-yet-untested open-fare system, which the TTC is pursuing.

As part of the project, Vancouver is also spending $90-million to install fare gates in its Skytrain stations to reduce revenue losses associated with fare evasion.

Mr. Cummings said the main goal is to build a smartcard that will be in wide use. TransLink hasn’t sought out partnerships with financial institutions, as would be the case with the TTC’s open-fare proposal.

But, he added, TransLink’s U-pass, for college and university students, will function like a smart card, library card and student ID card combined. And riders may eventually be able to use it to buy goods from the retailers inside the stations.

He also said that TransLink asked bidders to use well-established technology that has been “proven worldwide. We didn’t want to be the test bed.”

The TTC estimates it would cost almost $500-million to implement Presto, a proprietary system developed by Accenture, across its system. In June, the TTC spent $1.3-million to hire a consultant to fast-track a request for proposals for a contactless open-fare system, which would allow riders to pay with bank, credit or gift cards.

“People want to be able to use their bank cards,” said Toronto Mayor David Miller, describing open fare as “state of the art.”

“You don’t get stuck with one supplier and one technology,” which he said is “a recipe for increasing cost.”

While New York has an open-fare trial under way, no major American city has actually deployed such a system. (Utah has a small version.) In London, England, riders can sign up for a special Barclays PLC credit card that may be used on the Oyster system, as the city’s immensely popular contactless smartcard network is called.
 
In Hong Kong, our Octopus smart cards can be linked up to our credit cards so it recharges automatically upon reaching a negative balance. Users will never have to worry about being rejected at the gate if they go below 0. I think this is an effective way to achieve 'open payment' while not trying to be guinea pigs with new technology.
 
I received this response today from PRESTO to my inquiry over why I was charged full fare instead of the co-fare:

Dear X, Thank you for your feedback. Your first tap on at Union was at 15:15 the second tap on occurred at 17:22 at Burlington bus. The transfer window is 2 hours between the 1st tap on and 2nd tap on. Your second tap occurred 7 minutes over the transfer window, causing your card to be charged a full fare by Burlington. Sincerely, The PRESTO Team This email was sent from an outgoing-only address that cannot accept incoming emails. If you still have questions, please visit www.prestocard.ca and select "contact us" to log further feedback.
Click to expand...

I intend to respond, and not positively.

First, I can find no publicly available documentation that states the there is a 2-hour transfer window. Help in locating this, if it exists, is appreciated.

This policy is BS. In my case, the Burlington Transit bus was 10 minutes late arriving, so I was charged extra because of their failure to stick to schedule. Nowhere have I been told the dangers of tapping on before the instant you start a 70 minute train trip. And that's just from Union. What about when the service goes east of Union. If I'm coming from Oshawa, will it even be possible to board Burlington Transit within 2 hours? This is a non-issue for paper tickets. PRESTO is a regression from paper tickets in this respect. I am very pissed right now. Of course, you can only reply to them through their archaic feedback forms. I intend to CC my reply to as many news organizations as possible.
 
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Bus drivers in Brampton always accepted my transfers past the expired time simply because the first bus WAS past the expired time. Why would I want to get a PRESTO card, if I lose that flexibility?
 
hkskyline said:
In Hong Kong, our Octopus smart cards can be linked up to our credit cards so it recharges automatically upon reaching a negative balance. Users will never have to worry about being rejected at the gate if they go below 0. I think this is an effective way to achieve 'open payment' while not trying to be guinea pigs with new technology.
Click to expand...

RFID isn't new and neither are credit or debit cards. I see tap and go at many fast food places and it seems to work fine so I don't know why people would think using credit cards means being guinea pigs while using Presto being developed by a bunch of Accenture developers is a safer route. Open payments simply means accept many different cards. You can run any billing system on the backend which is off the shelf (perhaps even the Octopus system) as long as the whole thing runs by check-in check-out with no card features beyond what is on a normal credit or debit card.
 
A two-hour transfer window for GO is dumb. The GTA is big. And with GO's infrequent buses, it's a real headache.

Mississauga Transit has a two-hour window, but that makes sense because it's just one city.
 
EnviroTO said:
RFID isn't new and neither are credit or debit cards. I see tap and go at many fast food places and it seems to work fine so I don't know why people would think using credit cards means being guinea pigs while using Presto being developed by a bunch of Accenture developers is a safer route. Open payments simply means accept many different cards. You can run any billing system on the backend which is off the shelf (perhaps even the Octopus system) as long as the whole thing runs by check-in check-out with no card features beyond what is on a normal credit or debit card.
Click to expand...

But do Canadian credit cards carry that 'smart' chip that can be used for tap and go? I recall my old cards all did not feature that type of technology. Perhaps things have changed in the past few years.

If this is tested technology, then I really wonder why the TTC cannot implement open payment immediately rather than ask for more studies. But on the back end, accepting open payment means a lot of logistics needs to happen to charge and process payments among different card companies, which is something the smart card will avoid as that should be central clearing?

I see the problem being can the tap reader readily accept different issuers' cards, such as a Visa tap, Mastercard tap, and AMEX tap card? Is that what the bottleneck is all about?
 
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