Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[steveintoronto]

In your case, did it beep and the screen give the check mark?

Could have been a motor issue. Damn those motors!

As an electronic tech, I have to question how that could happen unless there's no confirmation of movement sensing in that operation. And if not, what else could not be fulfilling the command and yet the customer charged? They must be sensing on the electrical input, not the mechanical output, which could be done with a very simple mechanical or light interrupted function sensor. Even a magnetic sensor like a Hall Effect one. (as used in computer keyboards). Same circuit could/should be used to sustain/repeat the task until confirmed completed.

I was making the argument for just using basic machine code for them, but others pointing out the computer code. So when even bog simple machine code is almost always tasked with sensing the objective being completed, how couldn't computer code? Someone's asleep at the switch, literally.

I predict further problems with those gates.

 

[to_l]

We don’t expect magic, but Presto must do better

It's magical technology from 15 years in the past...

 

[steveintoronto]

We don’t expect magic, but Presto must do better

It's magical technology from 15 years in the past...

Indeed:

Until the new system is securely up and running, it would seem unwise to proceed with the planned elimination of tickets, tokens and Metropasses – a step originally planned for mid-2017 and now expected to be completed this year.

And transfers...the paper kind.

"Presto Malvolio"

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

In your case, did it beep and the screen give the check mark?

Could have been a motor issue. Damn those motors!

I don't remember as it was back in January.

 

[nfitz]

So clear, I just Googled for twenty minutes and couldn't find that. I have seen it before, which is why I end-up arguing with drivers, who've been instructed not to do so, about getting on without tapping.

Recently? I normally board at the front doors, and don't tap. I did have one difficult driver on a temporary unscheduled 506 replacement bus in early January - but I can see why they might not have been propertly trained. Or are you talking about non-500 series routes?

But yes, you shouldn't have to be the expert on the rules. I didn't Google BTW, I simply went to TTC's web site, and went to Fares&Passes/Presto Frequently Asked Questions/Presto on TTC Streetcars.

... at one point challenging the driver "Are you denying my boarding with a valid fare?"

The one that I had issues with in January, not only insisted I show him something to board the 506 (bus), but he'd refused to open the back doors "on the basis that he needed to check for valid fares). I refused to show anything, and he refused to drive the bus. I warned him that if I had to pull my Metropass out of my wallet, I'd be filing a detailed complaint about him breaking all the rules. And he insisted. So I pulled out my MetroPass, watched the smarmy look vanish from his face, and filed a very detailed formal complaint about him.

How about all those who, for some odd reason, don't go onto the internet to read the fine print on what the TTC should make clear before selling a fare? The Flexity has half full when it arrived at Roncy, and almost all of them then waited for the next car, which was a CLRV, and all, like myself, dutifully tapped on. How many of them were "aware of the rules"?

I agree. TTC operators should either know and communicate the rules, or be terminated for poor customer service.

Not been my experience. I've spent up to twenty minutes on the phone, trying to talk to a real person at the TTC, only for an (ostensibly TTC operator) come on the line to say Presto had transferred me to the wrong number. Another ten minutes transpired trying to get past TTC's insufferable menu, that repeats (as does Metrolinx') three times before pressing the "O" gets a real person. With the TTC, last two times, I just gave up. I'll get my money back in other ways from them.

I'm confused. Why would you be talking to Presto? They won't transfer you to TTC. If you get someone at Presto, they'll just tell you to call TTC Customer Service.

TTC Customer service is https://www.ttc.ca/Customer_Service/Compliments_Complaints_Suggestions/index.jsp and for Presto refunds just dial 416-393-3030

Though I must note, that when I started tracking my usage over longer periods of time, I did notice more free rides, than extra charges. So I've not bother to get refunds. Today's example was three 506 trips, first west, second east, and third east again ... all within an hour. Should have been charged 3 times. But only was charged twice (oddly the second one being free, not the third). Another free ride!

I would suggest the TTC continue issuing transfers when paying with Presto until such time as the TTC brings in the new two hour transfer rule.

Though given they haven't now for about 15 months, it seems unnecessary to change the system again for a 4-month or so period until 2-hour transfers are implemented.

Yeah, they've sure ironed out the bugs alright...I have pity on these folks, as they ask for help. My only answer to them is: "Take a picture on your phone, and show it to them if someone demands proof of payment".

If someone wants proof of payment, just letting them scan your Presto card would work. Operators aren't allowed to ask to check for proof of payment (mostly because they simply don't have the scanners).

 

[nfitz]

It's magical technology from 15 years in the past...

I wouldn't go that far. Presto 1.0 perhaps.

TTC installed Presto 2.0 (or something). Including all types of things not in the original 2000s version.

And it's certainly ahead of the Oyster card, Compass card, Opus card!

 

[aquateam]

I wouldn't go that far. Presto 1.0 perhaps.

TTC installed Presto 2.0 (or something). Including all types of things not in the original 2000s version.

And it's certainly ahead of the Oyster card, Compass card, Opus card!

Technologically, it may be ahead of the Opus card. But it is definitely not more convenient than the Opus card, which has been in use since 2008.

People are clearly quite frustrated with Presto: whether with the process of being billed, purchasing one in the first place, tapping in, topping up the card. In contrast, everyone I know who has used the Montreal metro system has been pleasantly surprised with the ease of payment. I know this sounds like a strange statement, but I have been surprised and delighted by my Opus card.

• With the Montreal metro system, there are a variety of understandable and affordable fare options (weekend pass, round trip, day pass), where you receive a disposable contactless card to tap in to the metro or bus. If you are entering a bus, you can put money into the machine and it will dispense one of those cards.
• At first, I would buy a monthly pass every month to load on to my card. The readers are smart enough to give you a grace period at the first day of the month in case you forgot to buy it, so you don't need to line up to pay at a machine when you are rushing to work.
• Then, I subscribed to a monthly billing. They issued me a new, permanent card, which "refills" every month (you don't need to get a new metropass card every month like in Toronto.) By subscribing, every twelth month was free.
• By subscribing, I got deep discounts on Car2Go and Bixi memberships, which I took full advantage of.
• After a year of subscribing, I received a message from Opus letting me know that my loyalty status had been upgraded and I would be getting a discount on my already-low fares (from $83/month to $78/month.)
• During the summer, I found out that I would now be eligible for a student fare despite being over 26, which results in more discounts (down to $49/month.)
• Last week I received a message from Opus letting me know that my "loyalty status" had been upgraded to "Maestro", and that if I went to a service center, they would print me a photo-ID pass that would allow me to bring a friend with me on transit for free.

To me, this shows how much can be done to improve the transit experience through policy and through operational changes (and a willingness to subsidize transit use.)

 

[hw621]

Technologically, it may be ahead of the Opus card. But it is definitely not more convenient than the Opus card, which has been in use since 2008.
People are clearly quite frustrated with Presto: whether with the process of being billed, tapping in, topping up the card. Everyone I know who has used the Montreal metro system has been pleasantly surprised with the ease of paying. I know this sounds like a strange statement, but I have been surprised and delighted by my Opus card.

• With the Montreal metro system, there are a variety of understandable and affordable fare options (weekend pass, round trip, day pass), where you receive a disposable contactless card to tap in to the metro or bus. If you are entering a bus, you can put money into the machine and it will dispense one of those cards.
• At first, I would buy a monthly pass every month. It is smart enough to give you a grace period at the first day of the month in case you forgot to buy it, so you don't need to line up to pay at a machine when you are rushing to work.
• Then, I subscribed to a monthly billing. They issued me a new, permanent card, which "refills" every month (you don't need to get a new metropass card every month like in Toronto.) By subscribing, every twelth month was free.
• By subscribing, I got deep discounts on Car2Go and Bixi memberships, which I took full advantage of.
• After a year of subscribing, I received a message from Opus letting me know that my loyalty status had been upgraded and I would be getting a discount on my already-low fares (from $83/month to $78/month.)
• During the summer, I found out that I would now be eligible for a student fare despite being over 26, which results in more discounts (down to $49/month.)
• Last week I received a message from Opus letting me know that my "loyalty status" had been upgraded to "Maestro", and that if I went to a service center, they would print me a photo-ID pass that would allow me to bring a friend with me on transit for free.

This does not even sound Canadian....

 

[Leo_Chan]

This does not even sound Canadian....

Or maybe it's too Canadian that it doesn't feel like Canadian.

 

[steveintoronto]

And Oyster is way ahead of Presto in many ways, not least that you don't even have to use the Oyster Card:

Contactless

Use contactless to pay as you go on bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail, Emirates Air Line, River Bus and most National Rail services in London.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless

With the growing popularity of contactless payments, the humble Oyster card has a diminished role on the London Underground. Still, it's a useful option for tourists, children, or anyone who wants to keep a close eye on their travel spending. Today, Transport for London (TfL) has launched a mobile app for iOS and Android that makes it easier to top-up and review your balance. Once your account is set up, you can top-up from anywhere — no more queuing at a ticket machine. After 30 minutes, you simply need to touch a reader and the amount will be added on automatically.

In a perfect world, of course, you wouldn't need to touch the reader at all. That's the case with contactless debit and credit cards, as well as mobile payment platforms such as Apple Pay. Still, it's a step forward for the trusty Oyster. The app also lists your journey history from the last eight weeks (how did I spent that much last month?) and will send a notification when your balance is running low. The latter feature sounds pretty useful, because no-one wants to be that person holding everyone up at the barrier, or rushing to top up while the train glides away from the station. In the future, TfL says you'll be able to apply for refunds through the app too

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/07/london-oyster-card-app-mobile-top-up/


And if you don't wish to use the card for transit? You can pay for other things with it.

Meantime:

Visa Uses TfL Experience To Help Other Cities With Contactless Transport Payments
Steve McCaskill , November 13, 2017, 9:41 am

Visa Global Transit Solutions offers guidance, frameworks and standards for transport operators around the world to implement contactless

Visa is setting up a new business unit to help public transport operators and technology providers implement contactless payment systems.

‘Visa Global Transit Solutions’ comprises consulting services, frameworks, tools and standards, and an innovation centre in London that will investigate new technologies to help customers.

Many major cities, such as London and Sydney, have contactless systems that cover rail, light rail, tram and bus services that speed up payments, offer dynamic fare models, and are more efficient to run.

“We work hard to make public transport in London easy for everyone and developing contactless ticketing has been a huge part of this,” said Shashi Verma, TfL CTO. “More than 40 per cent of pay as you go journeys are now made using contactless cards or mobile devices and we have already seen cards from more than 100 countries around the world using our system.

“To get to this point, a lot of things needed to change about how the payment industry worked, including the creation of new payment rules that were mandated worldwide. By (not) working together in partnership, we would not have seen the huge benefits to customers that contactless ticketing has already delivered in London.”

https://www.itproportal.com/news/visa-is-taking-contactless-travel-payments-global/

Gosh, d'ya think Presto might do anything like that someday? Perhaps when we actually become a "Wold Class City"...it might.

To me, this shows how much can be done to improve the transit experience through policy and through operational changes (and a willingness to subsidize transit use.)

Or to flip that over, why the TTC (and by extension City of Toronto) is having a tough time attracting new riders.

Presto certainly doesn't help, albeit it was imposed on the TTC by the Province.

And then there's this: (Elizabeth Line is Crossrail)

Friday 16 March 2018 6:00am
London mayor and TfL have just confirmed fares for the Elizabeth Line ahead of December launch
Transport for London (TfL) and mayor Sadiq Khan have confirmed the fares for the highly anticipated Elizabeth Line ahead of the £14.8bn project's launch in December.

TfL said that it will be charging the same prices on Elizabeth Line pay-as-you-go fares within zones one to six, as the rest of existing TfL services.

The Crossrail project will serve 41 stations and stretch across more than 60 miles from Reading and Heathrow in the west through tunnels in central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. It will be known as the Elizabeth Line, when the tunnels under central London open.

It will run with the same pay-as-you go fares set by London mayor Khan, while Oyster and contactless payments will also be accepted on rail services between Heathrow and Paddington for the first time.

The mayor said:

The opening of the Elizabeth Line this year will transform travel across London, with new state-of-the-art trains transporting millions of people more quickly around the capital.

The cost of travelling on the Elizabeth Line in zones 1-6 will be the same price as a similar journey on the Tube – fulfilling my manifesto pledge to deliver truly world-class transport infrastructure which is also accessible and affordable for all Londoners.

From 20 May, the current Heathrow Connect service between terminals two, three, four and Paddington, will be transferred to TfL, where for the first time passengers will be able to use their Oyster cards and contactless payments all the way from Paddington to Heathrow. Fares will also be cheaper or in line with the current standard fares charged for Heathrow Connect.[...]

http://www.cityam.com/282337/london-mayor-and-tfl-have-just-confirmed-fares-elizabeth

Late Addendum:
Just reading up on Korea's highly advanced systems https://www.citymetric.com/transpor...t-seoul-metro-system-were-too-afraid-ask-3702
(one of which is owned by Bombardier, btw), and lo and behold, what's featured at the bottom of the article?

• TRANSPORT
  
• CANADA
  
• January 12, 2018

The cold hard truth about Toronto's transport network
By Sanjana Varghese

With a population of 2.8 million, projected to grow to 7 million by 2050, Toronto is Canada’s most populated city. While its cultural, social and financial cachet skyrockets, one thing may soon hold it back – it’s public transport system.

Academic Caren Levy argued in 2013 that the ability to access transport reflects the “right to participate” in the life of the city – not just to exist in it, but to partake fully of what it offers, for work, leisure and education. Toronto’s public transport system has struggled to keep up with the growth of the city, and the demands that places on its infrastructure.

Ridership has dropped in recent years because of concerns over expense, comfort and even practicality – the stress that the transit system is under has rendered it inefficient and time-consuming. Add in the fact that a highway runs right through the centre of the city and that most of the public transport converges downtown, and it’s a recipe for disaster. [...]

https://www.citymetric.com/transport/cold-hard-truth-about-torontos-transport-network-3597

I'll post and discuss this in a more apt string.

 

[nfitz]

Technologically, it may be ahead of the Opus card. But it is definitely not more convenient than the Opus card, which has been in use since 2008.

It's infinitely more inconvenient than Opus.

• Torontonians complain that they have to wait overnight, and sometimes even 24 hours for an online load. Online load isn't even an option for Opus; the best they have is have have to buy a special piece of computer hardware that will write directly to your card! And you can only buy it from them.
  
  
• Presto is a cash-based system. You have to load cash. That's it. With Opus, you have to load tickets - tickets for each and every transit agency you use. And you can't do it online, remember? Nor can you buy ATM (or whatever they call it now) or STL from STM machines - and vice-versa.
  
  
• You can use the same Presto card for all agencies. With Opus, if you use more than (is it 3?) agencies, you need 2 cards. More than 6, you need 3 cards.

People are clearly quite frustrated with Presto: whether with the process of being billed, purchasing one in the first place, tapping in, topping up the card. In contrast, everyone I know who has used the Montreal metro system has been pleasantly surprised with the ease of payment. I know this sounds like a strange statement, but I have been surprised and delighted by my Opus card.

I suppose that might be true if you don't get out much and only ride STM, or buy the same zone pass every month. But it certainly isn't more convenient.

I've used 4 agencies with Presto in a single day (MiWay, TTC, GO Transit, and Union Pearson). I don't think that's even physically possible with Opus. I can't understand how everyone whines about how long it takes for an online load to take place on Presto, but Opus can be better, when you can't even do online loads???

Was Presto's mistake that it tried to be too cutting edge?

And Oyster is way ahead of Presto in many ways, not least that you don't even have to use the Oyster Card:

Contactless payment is coming with Presto as well.

Oyster has huge limitations too. You can't just do an online load. You must tell it which station (and only one) where you'll tap, so it's loaded into the machine in that station only.

If you only use buses - you are out of luck, as you can't get online loads.

And I'll take contactless more seriously, when there aren't warning messages about some debit/credit cards not working.

I'm amazed that people are always willing to ignore some major problems when they look at the greener grass next door - even when they live next to the prison farm!

 

[LNahid2000]

And I'll take contactless more seriously, when there aren't warning messages about some debit/credit cards not working.

This is true. When I was in London last year, only my Amex card worked. My friends tried all their credit cards and none of them worked, so they had to go buy paper tickets while I waited inside the fare paid zone.

 

[steveintoronto]

This is true. When I was in London last year, only my Amex card worked. My friends tried all their credit cards and none of them worked, so they had to go buy paper tickets while I waited inside the fare paid zone.

Oyster has huge limitations too. You can't just do an online load. You must tell it which station (and only one) where you'll tap, so it's loaded into the machine in that station only.

Really now?

Oyster
Get an Oyster card or top up your pay as you go credit online with a contactless and Oyster account (if you live in the UK), or at:

• Online with a contactless and Oyster account (if you live in the UK)
• Oyster Ticket Stops
• All Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
• Some DLR and National Rail stations
• Emirates Air Line terminals (top-up only)
• Oyster sales line on 0343 222 1234 (TfL call charges)
• Visitor Centres
• The Tramlink Shop (in Croydon)

Pay as you go
You can pay as you go using contactless or Oyster.

If you have a contactless payment card, you don't need to add credit before you use it.

If you have an Oyster card, you can top up your pay as you go credit:

• Online with a contactless and Oyster account (if you live in the UK)
• The TfL Oyster app
• Oyster Ticket Stops
• Ticket machines at all Tube, London Overground and TfL Rail stations
• Ticket machines at selected DLR stations and National Rail stations where pay as you go is accepted
• Ticket offices at London Overground, TfL Rail and National Rail stations where pay as you go is accepted
• Oyster sales line on 0343 222 1234 (TfL call charges)
• Visitor Centres
• The Tramlink Shop (in Croydon)

• https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/where-to-top-up-and-buy-tickets

I wonder what folks from other nations say about Presto? lol...

Btw: I've had absolutely no problem using my Cdn MasterCard, and that was a few years back even.

40% of travel on TfL is contactless.

 

[steveintoronto]

This is true. When I was in London last year, only my Amex card worked. My friends tried all their credit cards and none of them worked, so they had to go buy paper tickets while I waited inside the fare paid zone.

Non-UK contactless cards
Most contactless cards issued outside the UK can be used to buy tickets or top up an Oyster card at ticket machines at Tube, DLR, London Overground and TfL rail stations, at ticket offices and Visitor Centres, even if they can't be used for contactless travel.

The list below shows which cards issued outside the UK are accepted for contactless travel.

American Express (AMEX)
All American Express contactless payment cards.

MasterCard
Nearly all MasterCard and Maestro contactless payment cards issued outside the UK are accepted.

Some cards issued in the USA, Canada and the Netherlands are not accepted. If your card is rejected on our services, please contact your card issuer.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/what-are-contactless-payment-cards#on-this-page-1

Nothing like Presto! Nosirreee...

 

[aquateam]

It's infinitely more inconvenient than Opus.

• Torontonians complain that they have to wait overnight, and sometimes even 24 hours for an online load. Online load isn't even an option for Opus; the best they have is have have to buy a special piece of computer hardware that will write directly to your card! And you can only buy it from them.

The online load thing was definitely a fail on the part of the STM. I think they gave up on that, just like their trip-planning app.

But shortly after that debacle, they rolled out Opus à l'année. I'm not sure how the back-end works but I have been paying without using a machine since 2016. It just gets billed to my credit card halfway through the month. Kind of like the MDP with the TTC.

• Presto is a cash-based system. You have to load cash. That's it. With Opus, you have to load tickets - tickets for each and every transit agency you use. And you can't do it online, remember? Nor can you buy ATM (or whatever they call it now) or STL from STM machines - and vice-versa.
  
  
• You can use the same Presto card for all agencies. With Opus, if you use more than (is it 3?) agencies, you need 2 cards. More than 6, you need 3 cards.

I have a handful of zone 2 RTM and some RTL passes ($18 for a bundle of 6) on my card in addition to my STM pass so I can't say I've encountered this limitation. There are only 4 transit agencies in the entire Greater Montreal area (STM, STL, RTL, and RTM), so I question how complicated paying fares could really be, especially since there are co-fare passes. All those minor regional transit agencies were consolidated into the RTM when the RTM was created.

I think that the two regional cards show two different approaches:

• we could design a cash-based smart card system that is sophisticated enough to handle complex combinations of transfer rules, premium fares and dozens of agencies
• we could consolidate our transit agencies and simplify our fare structure enough that a dumb card could handle it, then make monthly passes affordable enough (as a multiple of single-use prices) that people are not regularly buying one-way trips to save money

I suppose that might be true if you don't get out much and only ride STM, or buy the same zone pass every month. But it certainly isn't more convenient.

I've used 4 agencies with Presto in a single day (MiWay, TTC, GO Transit, and Union Pearson). I don't think that's even physically possible with Opus. I can't understand how everyone whines about how long it takes for an online load to take place on Presto, but Opus can be better, when you can't even do online loads???

I can guarantee that it is physically impossible to use Opus for TTC, Miway, Go Transit, and UPX in one day . But for their Montreal analogs it shouldn't have a problem.

For occasional users of a system, you just buy a "carnet"/bundle of passes at the machine, which remain on your card until you use them up.

Given an option between being able to immediate load a pass but at a machine, and being able to load a pass online but only 24 hours in advance, most people would choose to be able to do it at the machine.

Was Presto's mistake that it tried to be too cutting edge?

I think Presto's mistake was trying to reinvent the wheel by contracting Accenture to design a system from scratch that they could market to other cities instead of taking a COTS solution from another city. At $1 billion, Presto is arguably the world's most expensive transit card payment system.

Contactless payment is coming with Presto as well.

Ah, maybe I am misusing the term "contactless." I just meant that nothing needs to be swiped or inserted, instead I tap my wallet to the turnstile. Although there is a thin layer of leather between my card and the turnstile.