Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[steveintoronto]

Well they've just negated their logic for not having universal back-door loading by claiming this latest move. Steve Munro gonna have a heyday.

[...]
OgtheDim (@OgtheDim) | January 9, 2017 at 2:17 pm


Has there been any discussion of when/if back door loading will be allowed on buses (says the guy who watches buses with not full back sections drive past him most mornings)?

Steve: Yes there has, and the TTC does not plan to implement rear door loading on buses.

Ross Trusler | January 10, 2017 at 2:20 am
Steve said: …the TTC does not plan to implement rear door loading on buses.

(sound of jaw hitting floor)

The TTC works hard to give the impression that it’s the institutional equivalent of a brain dead patient kept alive only by a ventilator.

Does anyone making these decisions have any passing knowledge or experience with how circulation in buses actually works (or doesn’t work)? Because of aisle widths and circulation impacts thereof, rear door loading (particularly on articulated buses) is needed even more than on streetcars.

Wait, I’ve got an idea. Maybe we can encourage the TTC to implement 2-hour transfers and make up the lost revenue from the efficiencies of allowing rear door loading. Can’t hurt to at least propose it, and the pairing is just as logical as any TTC thinking I’ve encountered. I know… I know.

OgtheDim (@OgtheDim) | January 11, 2017 at 12:04 pm

OK, so now I’m trying to figure out why every single bus in the line of 6 that came over the hill towards the waiting throng at my bus stop this morning has a Presto reader at the back.

Admittedly, only 3 of the conga line of quite full buses had room at the back somebody could get in but if we are not supposed to use those back door readers when getting on, why are they there?

Steve: Because some locations do use rear door loading, notably subway stations, but also some regular stops (with loaders). In theory you are supposed to tap onto a surface vehicle when transferring from the subway, but the TTC has not activated this yet because, quite obviously, there is no way to tap on to the subway going the other way. All of this is the BS confusion brought about by the failure to adopt something other than the current byzantine transfer rules.
[...]

https://stevemunro.ca/2016/12/27/ttc-presto-update-december-2016/#comments

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Well they've just negated their logic for not having universal back-door loading by claiming this latest move. Steve Munro gonna have a hey day.

They aren't planning to have boarding of buses by the back door except for stations and ends of line.

 

[steveintoronto]

They aren't planning to have boarding of buses by the back door except for stations and ends of line.

That's exactly the point. What reason do they have now they feel that paper transfers are no longer necessary?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

That's exactly the point. What reason do they have now they feel that paper transfers are no longer necessary?

Buses are having them put onto the rear doors because when you enter them in a station you are going to have to tap onto them. The same will be for streetcars too. Think it the same thing as tapping off a go train. Eventually you will even need to tap off to get out of a station too.

 

[steveintoronto]

Buses are having them put onto the rear doors because when you enter them in a station you are going to have to tap onto them. The same will be for streetcars too. Think it the same thing as tapping off a go train. Eventually you will even need to tap off to get out of a station too.

You've inverted the logic this presents. Since no paper transfer is needed...WHY...can't those who've tapped on already board by the rear doors? They do it on streetcars. Where is the logic, if any, on that? We're not talking about what is to be, we're talking NOW.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

You've inverted the logic this presents. Since no paper transfer is needed...WHY...can't those who've tapped on already board by the rear doors? They do it on streetcars. Where is the logic, if any, on that? We're not talking about what is to be, we're talking NOW.

What logic. You will need to show you have transferred from the subway to a bus or streetcar by tapping on to it, no tap no valid transfer.

 

[steveintoronto]

What logic. You will need to show you have transferred from the subway to a bus or streetcar by tapping on to it, no tap no valid transfer.

"to a bus or streetcar by tapping on to it, no tap no valid transfer."

Exactly. Now tell me why you present both as an answer when you do that onto a streetcar, but it's not allowed on a bus, except where it is. (The TTC still haven't a written policy for that, because they break it themselves)

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

"to a bus or streetcar by tapping on to it, no tap no valid transfer."

Exactly. Now tell me why you present both as an answer when you do that onto a streetcar, but it's not allowed on a bus, except where it is. (The TTC still haven't a written policy for that, because they break it themselves)

It's not policy yet though because presto hasn't been fully rolled out yet. If you pick up one of the pamphlets the TTC hands out with presto information it says on it that you will need to tap onto streetcars and buses in stations.

 

[Voltz]

"to a bus or streetcar by tapping on to it, no tap no valid transfer."

Exactly. Now tell me why you present both as an answer when you do that onto a streetcar, but it's not allowed on a bus, except where it is. (The TTC still haven't a written policy for that, because they break it themselves)

If you mean boarding outside of a Subway Station, you can't board by the rear doors using Presto on a bus outside of a Subway Station because there are no fare inspectors on bus routes, you have to board by the front and tap your presto card so the driver knows you have paid or have a valid transfer, and with presto the transfer is stored on the card from you previous tap.

 

[steveintoronto]

If you mean boarding outside of a Subway Station, you can't board by the rear doors using Presto on a bus outside of a Subway Station because there are no fare inspectors on bus routes, you have to board by the front and tap your presto card so the driver knows you have paid or have a valid transfer, and with presto the transfer is stored on the card from you previous tap.

So it all comes down to POP enforcement? Getting back to timed transfers....

 

[steveintoronto]

It's not policy yet though because presto hasn't been fully rolled out yet. If you pick up one of the pamphlets the TTC hands out with presto information it says on it that you will need to tap onto streetcars and buses in stations.

So if there's no 'fare inspectors', how are they going to enforce tapping on at the rear doors of a bus in a subway station? TTC: Master of the Gordian Not. (sic)

 

[amnesiajune]

So if there's no 'fare inspectors', how are they going to enforce tapping on at the rear doors of a bus in a subway station?

They won't. They don't need to unless a bus route is running on the honour system.

 

[Tuck]

The other day I had to get from UofT to Ryerson but the streetcar that came by had both readers broken. I wasn't sure if that mean't I get a free ride or not, so I just walked.

And it was a pretty nice walk. Guess I'll be walking from UofT to Ryerson every Monday, instead of taking the TTC.

Thanks Presto!

EDIT: I don't get why on busses you'd only be able to tap on the rear exit at certain stops/terminal stations? Whats the point. You can rear enter on the streetcars. Lack of consistency = confusion.

 

[steveintoronto]

They won't. They don't need to unless a bus route is running on the honour system.

So if the bus isn't running on an honour system, how is tapping on at a subway going to be any different than tapping on anywhere else (where it's not allowed)? And who's to check it? Do they intend to have a fare inspector checking everyone tapping on the rear doors of buses at subway stations? Or are they relying on neighbours and friends snitching on them a la the Stasi? Remember, you just stated the default is that there's to be no honour system on the buses. But boarding on the rear of the bus is to be at subway stations where those boarding are to tap their cards. And the same on streetcars, you'll have to tap on at the Subway, but they have an honour system! Or do they? Or don't they? Note they won't be tapping off before tapping on. Or will they? So where are the barriers going to be to separate those tapping off the subway from those that haven't yet? Ah yes, Presto will definitely have an algorithm to deal with that. Not. What would Monty Python do without Presto? Visit Kafka by riding the Red Rocket to Prague?

EDIT: I don't get why on busses you'd only be able to tap on the rear exit at certain stops/terminal stations? Whats the point. You can rear enter on the streetcars. Lack of consistency = confusion.

Various posters can't figure out the Gordian (K)Not, so I'm completely with you Tuck. And I too end up walking rather than having to 'justify myself' to a system that can't get it straight, and then calls me out when I don't do the dance they didn't announce. The TTC two-step, with a twist flip back to where you started.

Pass me the dancing wax....

 

[Leo_Chan]

When Presto becomes pretty much 100% reliable (which it probably won't this year ), tapping on and tapping off will be the norm. Even within "fare paid area", you need to tap on and off at all reader you walk pass/through.

With the issue about fare evasion due to the honour system, I believe having staff/officers checking Presto cards for POP will be done more frequently. This involves either having a special Presto reader that shows if paid or not, or a "master switch/button" that allows fare inspectors to use existing Presto readers to check payment status. This will not prevent people evading fares when no one is watching, but it will reduce the chance of happening due to POP checks happening more frequently.

Entering from the back doors of a bus is a no brainer, it has to be allowed in the future by default. People leaving the bus tap off, then people entering tap on, its pretty simple if you ask me.

The only inconsistency I can think of is when transferring from a subway to a bus/streetcar/LRT. Since you do not leave the fare paid area to switch modes, fare gates are not present for tapping off to the bus area. This isn't a big deal as individual Presto readers should know their current location and commute path can be calculated based on the tap on an offs. Here a scenario: Bus -> Subway -> LRT. So the procedure will be: Tap on (bus) -> Tap off (bus) -> Tap on (LRT) -> Tap off (LRT). The subway path "should" be the shortest distance with the least transfers, so no intermediate readers shouldn't be a problem unless someone is being inefficient (Bus to Line 2, switch to Line 1, switch back to Line 2, switch to LRT). I hope no one is dumb (or smart) enough to do this.