Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[TOareaFan]

There's only one definition.

that is just not true. Sure there is one geo-political definition in that if you want to assign every country to one of the 7 continents then the definition is clear...every piece of land north of South America (including Greenland) is considered part of North America.

But to deny there are many other common use definitions of "North America" is simplistic and naive.

Lots of people define it as the 3 countries of Mexico, USA and Canada....geez, even the free trade agreement called NAFTA only includes those three countries.

Lots of people, rightly or wrongly, even exclude Mexico and lump them in with the other "Central American" countries and leave the definition of North America as simply Canada and USA.

Take one of the world's biggest events that is in the news these days...the World Cup. As they divide the world up for qualification purposes they create regions. The region that covers the countries that the technical definition of North America includes is called The Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football (CONCACAF). Surely if the definition of what is North America was so clear and subject to only one single definition they would simply call this "North America" as they do with Europe and Asia. But, no, they define the region by including all the sub-components of the continent and, within their name, assign to part of it the name North America.

 

[P23]

that is just not true. Sure there is one geo-political definition in that if you want to assign every country to one of the 7 continents then the definition is clear...every piece of land north of South America (including Greenland) is considered part of North America.

But to deny there are many other common use definitions of "North America" is simplistic and naive.

Lots of people define it as the 3 countries of Mexico, USA and Canada....geez, even the free trade agreement called NAFTA only includes those three countries.

Lots of people, rightly or wrongly, even exclude Mexico and lump them in with the other "Central American" countries and leave the definition of North America as simply Canada and USA.

Take one of the world's biggest events that is in the news these days...the World Cup. As they divide the world up for qualification purposes they create regions. The region that covers the countries that the technical definition of North America includes is called The Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football (CONCACAF). Surely if the definition of what is North America was so clear and subject to only one single definition they would simply call this "North America" as they do with Europe and Asia. But, no, they define the region by including all the sub-components of the continent and, within their name, assign to part of it the name North America.

I don't particularly care what the common idiot defines it as, there is only one correct definition.

 

[rbt]

You mean you actually have to do a separate transaction everytime you ride? You can't just tap your phone against something!?! How do they handle transfers? MBTA rail passengers aren't that insignificant ... they have 34 million riders a year ... that's half the ridership that GO has.

Right. You open the app on the device sitting in your pocket at any time during your walk to the station OR after board the train and buy a ticket in 3 taps (for regulars) of the screen using your saved route and saved credit card information. No additional things to carry around all day, no balance to consider/top-ups needed, no interest free loan to the government, no need to find the magic post before boarding, no need to open your wallet/purse to extract the card, etc.

With half the total ridership, and over twice the number of stations (~140 over 11 lines versus ~65 stations on 7 lines) means a little under 1/4th the passengers per station.

As for transfers, they handle those by having ridiculously low fares and charging the full fare. Downtown Boston to Providence, Rhode Island (different state; 80km trip) + subway ride is about $12. That said, they do have the option of linking the mobile app to a charlie card number and providing transfer capabilities. Transfers are entirely in the backend (pricing algorithm) and have nothing to do with the physical card itself. They just need to be able to identify the customer in both cases, which can be done.

They're able to have ridiculously low fares in part because they don't spend $70M on a fare readers for commuter rail when $10M (vending machines refurbishment, mobile app) can do the job just as well and, IMHO, more conveniently. Nothing sucks more than missing your train to load value onto your Presto card due to the line at the fare loading machines at Union.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't particularly care what the common idiot defines it as, there is only one correct definition.

Calling a significant portion of the world, including some significant people in powerful positions, "idiots" is an interesting approach to life....good luck with that

 

[mpd618]

I don't particularly care what the common idiot defines it as, there is only one correct definition.

You know, I don't think linguistic prescriptivism is the solution to the problems of electronic transit fare integration across the GTHA.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Nothing sucks more than missing your train to load value onto your Presto card due to the line at the fare loading machines at Union.

Forgetting to tap off and being charged a full fare blows too.

 

[the lemur]

Forgetting to tap off and being charged a full fare blows too.

That's why the transit system in Amsterdam constantly runs announcements before every stop, reminding people to do that. That's with a card that works on transit systems in other cities AND the national rail network, BTW.

I think London also uses some kind of (visual) reminder.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Or use gated access, which has the added benefit of cutting down on trespassers, etc.

AoD

 

[the lemur]

Or use gated access, which has the added benefit of cutting down on trespassers, etc.

AoD

Unless someone figures out a loophole ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llagers-baffled-43-000-fare-dodger-midst.html

 

[nfitz]

I don't particularly care what the common idiot defines it as, there is only one correct definition.

How can their be only one correct definition for ANY world in the English language. There's no regulation of language use ... it's based entirely on common usage, unlike many languages.

Right. You open the app on the device sitting in your pocket at any time during your walk to the station OR after board the train and buy a ticket in 3 taps (for regulars) of the screen using your saved route and saved credit card information. No additional things to carry around all day, no balance to consider/top-ups needed, no interest free loan to the government, no need to find the magic post before boarding, no need to open your wallet/purse to extract the card, etc.

With half the total ridership, and over twice the number of stations (~140 over 11 lines versus ~65 stations on 7 lines) means a little under 1/4th the passengers per station.

As for transfers, they handle those by having ridiculously low fares and charging the full fare. Downtown Boston to Providence, Rhode Island (different state; 80km trip) + subway ride is about $12. That said, they do have the option of linking the mobile app to a charlie card number and providing transfer capabilities. Transfers are entirely in the backend (pricing algorithm) and have nothing to do with the physical card itself. They just need to be able to identify the customer in both cases, which can be done.

Still seems rather annoying ... and what happens if your get on the train, and then you discover your battery is flat, or the app won't work that day? They promised they would roll out the cards to the MBTA trains ... and they have been unable to deliver. That's a failure.

Nothing sucks more than missing your train to load value onto your Presto card due to the line at the fare loading machines at Union.

Forgetting to tap off and being charged a full fare blows too.

Set up autoload ... why would you want to have to stop to load $? And remember to tap off ... that's not difficult ... and the full fare for the entire line isn't as bad as you think, given the deep discount GO does for longer distances. Personally I found the old 10-ride tickets more annoying ... when you were trying to stand there and get them to validate, and it wouldn't accept it, and your train was pulling into the station ... because then it was too late to go buy another ticket!

 

[rbt]

Still seems rather annoying ... and what happens if your get on the train, and then you discover your battery is flat, or the app won't work that day? They promised they would roll out the cards to the MBTA trains ... and they have been unable to deliver. That's a failure

I never said it was perfect. I'm saying it's nearly or just as good and much cheaper. Nearly every fare system has problems starting with the fact they all require you to have something which can be lost, torn or destroyed like paper ticket, phone, or card.


Last time Presto was down (both autoload and web loads are not instant and can completely fail on negative balance cards) I bought a paper ticket from the bus driver at full cost then spend 30 minutes in the Presto support office at Union (mid-trip) getting it fixed then calling to get a refund on the double-fare paid due to blowing the 2-hour travel window getting the first problem fixed.


It's pretty easy to go through your $20 autoload balance which might be more than enough for your commute but if you take a special trip, perhaps to the airport, you can empty your card rapidly. Of course, autoload only works for frequent users. That 2 to 3 week vacation is long enough that the load will be ignored when you return leaving you with an empty or negative balance card when you try to board the GO bus back home.

I've hit this one too. Took TTC instead because they take credit cards at the airport and I didn't have Canadian cash.


Most fare systems have problems but the Presto frontend (what the customer deals with) still feels very young for a platform which will be completely out of date in 10 years. The backend seems fine, and thankfully that'll be portable to a new frontend mechanism.

 

[Wrenkin]

Unless someone figures out a loophole ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llagers-baffled-43-000-fare-dodger-midst.html

Not exactly a loophole. Only worked because there were no barriers on the first station.

 

[TOareaFan]

Does autoload on Presto still fail if you go negative and take 24 hours to process?

With autoload you can't go negative and there is no delay at all.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

How can their be only one correct definition for ANY world in the English language. There's no regulation of language use ... it's based entirely on common usage, unlike many languages.

Still seems rather annoying ... and what happens if your get on the train, and then you discover your battery is flat, or the app won't work that day? They promised they would roll out the cards to the MBTA trains ... and they have been unable to deliver. That's a failure.

Set up autoload ... why would you want to have to stop to load $? And remember to tap off ... that's not difficult ... and the full fare for the entire line isn't as bad as you think, given the deep discount GO does for longer distances. Personally I found the old 10-ride tickets more annoying ... when you were trying to stand there and get them to validate, and it wouldn't accept it, and your train was pulling into the station ... because then it was too late to go buy another ticket!

I don't use PRESTO often, so I'm not going to set up autoload.

And I've heard issues about autoload anyways.

 

[the lemur]

How can their be only one correct definition for ANY world in the English language. There's no regulation of language use ... it's based entirely on common usage, unlike many languages.

I was going to comment on the 'North America' definition a while ago ... and then I fell into a Wikipedia hole about boundary disputes and former states of Central America. Anyway, 'North America', despite the NAFTA-friendly definition, still means just the US and Canada to a lot of people, and Mexico is where ... something else begins. The Latin world, I guess (with some exceptions, of course).

In Spanish, América del Norte definitely includes Mexico (although norteamericano generally refers to US American people and things), whereas América Central definitely does not include Mexico and is defined as the five republics in the region that declared its independence from Spain (Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua and Guatemala) and then from the Mexican Empire, and which subsequently formed a very brief union. Plus Belize (former British colony, long a target of Guatemalan irredentism) and Panama (formerly part of a much larger Colombia).

To bring this back to the subject of farecards, uh, Mexico City has an Octopus-type card that works on all forms of transit, even with different operators, and the city's bikeshare system.