Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Adjei]

Seems you can now use one card in GTHA and Ottawa:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20140214/20140214_BoardMtg_PRESTO_Upgrade_EN.pdf

 

[innsertnamehere]

anyone know why the hell Metrolinx bothered developing the loading machine currently in Union? as far as I know there are only a few of them in the entire system, and its always malfunctioning. I thought they were going to use them on the TTC but apparently not.. seems like a huge waste of money. This sort of looks like a further developed version of the current machines, but still.

 

[BMO]

Transit agencies can deploy devices from multiple vendors.

Seems like the system is becoming a little more open allowing for third party fare machines to work with it.

 

[rbt]

Seems like the system is becoming a little more open allowing for third party fare machines to work with it.

At the end of this entire thing, they'll have invented a Visa Debit card and small funds bank account that isn't covered by CDIC or pays interest.

 

[Komiksulo]

anyone know why the hell Metrolinx bothered developing the loading machine currently in Union?

I believe the one at Union is a prototype. Hopefully they are learning from it.

 

[nfitz]

There was an article in yesterday's Star about Stintz's likely futile attempt to accelerate the Presto rollout for TTC:

TTC chair wants Metrolinx to speed up Presto launch

One statement caught my eye: "Because there’s no point retrofitting old streetcars when the TTC is beginning the roll-out of new low-floor vehicles, Stintz said she understands that Presto can’t be available on all 11 streetcar routes by next year."

Wait ... so if you carry that to it's logical conclusion, then Presto rollout for TTC won't be complete until the old streetcars are retired, currently planned for 2019?

Not sure why you wouldn't stick the same Presto units on the existing streetcars, that you'd be putting on the buses. I'd have though it would been easier to have done all 250 or so streetcars, than it would be to 2,000 or so buses. Probably closer to 200 or so streetcars by 2016 ... so at the end of the day you have 200 or so extra Presto units ... which presumably you'd need as the bus fleet grows once the new garage opens around 2019.

 

[salsa]

Not sure why you wouldn't stick the same Presto units on the existing streetcars, that you'd be putting on the buses. I'd have though it would been easier to have done all 250 or so streetcars, than it would be to 2,000 or so buses. Probably closer to 200 or so streetcars by 2016 ... so at the end of the day you have 200 or so extra Presto units ... which presumably you'd need as the bus fleet grows once the new garage opens around 2019.

I think her rational is that installing presto on the streetcars would be a sunk cost since they are going to retire very soon anyway.

 

[ShonTron]

There was an article in yesterday's Star about Stintz's likely futile attempt to accelerate the Presto rollout for TTC:

TTC chair wants Metrolinx to speed up Presto launch

One statement caught my eye: "Because there’s no point retrofitting old streetcars when the TTC is beginning the roll-out of new low-floor vehicles, Stintz said she understands that Presto can’t be available on all 11 streetcar routes by next year."

Wait ... so if you carry that to it's logical conclusion, then Presto rollout for TTC won't be complete until the old streetcars are retired, currently planned for 2019?

There are a lot of buses to be retired in the next few years: (source)

The Orion Vs (9400s and 7000s) are going this year, replaced by the Nova Artics
The Nova RTS buses (the 7200s, found on routes 96/165, 36, 37) are going in 2015.
The New Flyer low floors (7300s) are going in 2016.
The first of the Orion VIIs (1000s-1100s hybrids) are going starting in 2016 as well.

It's not a big deal to move Presto readers around. Brampton and Mississauga have since retired buses so equipped.

 

[BMO]

There was an article in yesterday's Star about Stintz's likely futile attempt to accelerate the Presto rollout for TTC:

TTC chair wants Metrolinx to speed up Presto launch

One statement caught my eye: "Because there’s no point retrofitting old streetcars when the TTC is beginning the roll-out of new low-floor vehicles, Stintz said she understands that Presto can’t be available on all 11 streetcar routes by next year."

Wait ... so if you carry that to it's logical conclusion, then Presto rollout for TTC won't be complete until the old streetcars are retired, currently planned for 2019?

Not sure why you wouldn't stick the same Presto units on the existing streetcars, that you'd be putting on the buses. I'd have though it would been easier to have done all 250 or so streetcars, than it would be to 2,000 or so buses. Probably closer to 200 or so streetcars by 2016 ... so at the end of the day you have 200 or so extra Presto units ... which presumably you'd need as the bus fleet grows once the new garage opens around 2019.

Sticking units on existing streetcars is a bunch of labour that doesn't make sense to do when many of those streetcars are going out of service permanently, you're looking at labour to install, labour to uninstall and labour to install the unit on a new streetcar. You're essentially paying three-times the labour if you put them on old streetcars. It's different if the streetcars were pre-frabricated to take an electronic unit for fares, but the electrical work and IT work behind it makes it unreasonable, especially since the TTC has placed such stringent costing on the rollout.

This is really a shame, I too was under the impression that the majority of the TTC would have been rolled out with PRESTO by Pan Am Games. I think full roll-out by 2016 is ridiculous. The modernization of the fare system is one of the msot important items for the TTC and Metrolinx, and is the key to potentially unlocking the issue of fare integration. This is the price of building your own proprietary technology though. You're always going to have a slow build and run into a bunch of bugs along the way. Eventually, though, it'll be perfectly customized for your needs, so hopefully by 2016-17 this will be what 75% or higher use for paying their fares in Toronto along with mobile phone solutions.

The wealth of ridership data that PRESTO will generate for transit agencies is going to be an enormous boon to transit planning. Depending on the fare structure agencies like GO will be able to pinpoint exactly where users get on and off. Other agencies like YRT, etc will be able to see broader data like what routes people get on or off of, but not necessarily pinpointed exact locations since the metadata would only get the boarding info from the card, but the passenger could get off anywhere along the route without tapping their card. Still, this will give huge insights into Regional travel patterns as opposed to just local agency patterns.

 

[nfitz]

This is really a shame, I too was under the impression that the majority of the TTC would have been rolled out with PRESTO by Pan Am Games. I think full roll-out by 2016 is ridiculous.

If 2016 is ridiculous, what about 2019? The most recent schedule I've seen calls for the last CLRV retirement sometime in 2019 (assuming the schedule doesn't slip ... which seems unlikely given the current schedule calls for the delivery of 9 new streetcars by end of 2013 and the retirement of 42 ALRVs during 2014!). Perhaps even later, as the schedule requires 226 new streetcars in 2020, and only 204 are currently funded.

Does TTC really save money by not being able to eliminate other media until 2020 ... or later?

Looking at the schedule, there's certainly no need to put machines on the ALRVs, but I'd think 100 or so of the CLRVs would require Presto.

Other agencies like YRT, etc will be able to see broader data like what routes people get on or off of, but not necessarily pinpointed exact locations since the metadata would only get the boarding info from the card, but the passenger could get off anywhere along the route without tapping their card.

True, but for regular travel, it shouldn't be difficult for software to identifiy where they are most likely getting off, either by where they tap on to continue their journey, or by where they start a trip from a few hours later. Won't be 100% accurate, but will still be extrapolated to create valuable data.

 

[rbt]

Does TTC really save money by not being able to eliminate other media until 2020 ... or later?

Going to Presto isn't going to save them money; so yeah, pinching pennies on the rollout may well be the best thing to do. It impacts how long the transitional equipment needs to be around for; but it will have a design lifetime of a decade.

IIRC Presto claims to reduce TTC fare collection overhead from 7% to 5% (a fare increase will also reduce this %age) but they don't include some TTC labour for installing Presto machines; such as retrofitting old streetcars to power the units in that analysis.

So long as they need to accept cash, they might as well continue accepting and reusing tokens.

Fare fraud will eventually kill off the old fare media.

 

[nfitz]

Going to Presto isn't going to save them money

Sure it does. Their annual payment to Metrolinx was designed to be revenue neutral, if they eliminated most of the existing media, distribution, etc. But if don't fully implement Presto, then they'll be both paying Metrolinx $ and also still funding much of the existing fare distribution system.

 

[rbt]

Sure it does. Their annual payment to Metrolinx was designed to be revenue neutral, if they eliminated most of the existing media, distribution, etc. But if don't fully implement Presto, then they'll be both paying Metrolinx $ and also still funding much of the existing fare distribution system.

Right, so they can scale back distribution of old media by 90% for the people that don't take the old streetcars, and scale back the presto fees by 10% by not installing into the old streetcars. The busier tram routes are also the first to be converted.

Stations with old streetcars stopping at them (downtown + a handful on BD) get doubled-up.

Transfers are not going to be phased out due to cash fares. It'll be clunky for the last couple of routes to get the new LRVs but doable. I have no idea what the cost of installation would be versus the number of free riders (disputes in this case should side with the rider) but I'm sure someone has counted the beans.

 

[nfitz]

Right, so they can scale back distribution of old media by 90% for the people that don't take the old streetcars, and scale back the presto fees by 10% by not installing into the old streetcars.

What's been evident from other communities, is that you don't get proper uptake of Presto until you discontinue the old media. You can't discontinue the old media until you get 100% implementation.

I doubt they are actually waiting until 2019 ... I assume that the Toronto Star didn't get the fully story, and there'd be a plan to install power and Presto on at least half the CLRV fleet, based on the timetable. But probably the final vehicles to be done to minimize unnecessary installations.

The busier tram routes are also the first to be converted.

The TTC's busiest route is 504 King; it won't be converted until 2017. While the second busiest route (509/510) is scheduled for 2014, the third busiest (501 Queen) won't be done until 2016. The fourth busiest (506 Carlton) won't be done until 2019. And the 5th busiest (512 St. Clair) won't be done until 2018. The least busy full-time route (512 Bathurst) goes second after Spadina/Harbourfront. I don't think there's any correlation between busier routes and timing, other than the initial rollout on the completely overloaded Spadina route.

Transfers are not going to be phased out due to cash fares.

Not eliminate, but I'd think they'd be very different. I assume that with the new fareboxes, you'd put in the cash, and it would automatically spit out a machine-readable receipt with date/time information that would serve as a transfer, and could be used in the subway faregates, etc.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

I don't know if anyone has posted this but the turnstiles at the southern entrance of St. Clair have been removed completely and it looks like they've been installing new wires into the floor. Could this possibly be a pilot project for new turnstiles?