Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[jordanmkasla2009]

If you can literally sense it....you should share the information with us.

I actually think Metrolinx should share it with us. They have been very public about the terms of the contract...they told us without hesitation that 6 were due by today and they told us that there were substantial financial penalties just for missing that deadline (ie. that they did not have to show damages) so they can't hide behind any privacy concerns and should just come out and tell us what amount of money they think BBD owes them for missing the "6 by Feb 1" deadline and when they expect to get the money.

Metrolinx has to authorize delivery before Metrolinx can get them delivered. The first vehicle was delivered late because Metrolinx's "inspector" found that the vehicle required "corrections and adjustments" without specifying what exactly was wrong with it. If they are delivering the first 6 by truck as it seems they are, it takes a lot of time and a lot of paperwork to book a truck of that size with the required police escort. Not to mention the fact that the truck company has to have time in its schedule for the shipment. Metrolinx and Crosslinx would have been better off ensuring that they could be delivered by rail. You can ship multiple vehicles that way.

Surely after 24 hours, the financial damages are minimal, particularly given they've already got 3 of the prototypes.

How much have they been running the other 3 prototypes?

Where could Metrolinx possibly run them? The only thing they can possibly do is clearance testing in the yard and shop. They have no track to test on and no track systems to test either. Most of the vehicle control system testing for these vehicles has already been done in Kingston and Waterloo (which wasn't supposed to be a glorified test track for these vehicles, but has track geometry that's far more complex than anything they will find on Line 5). So really, what is the rush for the vehicles? Is it to make Bombardier look bad? To manufacture some sort of crisis to justify their contract with Alstom?

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx has to authorize delivery before Metrolinx can get them delivered. The first vehicle was delivered late because Metrolinx's "inspector" found that the vehicle required "corrections and adjustments" without specifying what exactly was wrong with it. If they are delivering the first 6 by truck as it seems they are, it takes a lot of time and a lot of paperwork to book a truck of that size with the required police escort. Not to mention the fact that the truck company has to have time in its schedule for the shipment. Metrolinx and Crosslinx would have been better off ensuring that they could be delivered by rail. You can ship multiple vehicles that way.



Where could Metrolinx possibly run them? The only thing they can possibly do is clearance testing in the yard and shop. They have no track to test on and no track systems to test either. Most of the vehicle control system testing for these vehicles has already been done in Kingston and Waterloo (which wasn't supposed to be a glorified test track for these vehicles, but has track geometry that's far more complex than anything they will find on Line 5). So really, what is the rush for the vehicles? Is it to make Bombardier look bad? To manufacture some sort of crisis to justify their contract with Alstom?

All I am saying is:

if the contract is as cut and dried as Metrolinx says it is.....there are penalties due now for failure to deliver (for any reason) 6 by Feb 1 and there are substantial penalties that BBD has to pay that are now due. Since they have shared som much detail from the contract they should go all the way and tell us how much they believe they are owed and by when.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Metrolinx has to authorize delivery before Metrolinx can get them delivered. The first vehicle was delivered late because Metrolinx's "inspector" found that the vehicle required "corrections and adjustments" without specifying what exactly was wrong with it. If they are delivering the first 6 by truck as it seems they are, it takes a lot of time and a lot of paperwork to book a truck of that size with the required police escort. Not to mention the fact that the truck company has to have time in its schedule for the shipment. Metrolinx and Crosslinx would have been better off ensuring that they could be delivered by rail. You can ship multiple vehicles that way.



Where could Metrolinx possibly run them? The only thing they can possibly do is clearance testing in the yard and shop. They have no track to test on and no track systems to test either. Most of the vehicle control system testing for these vehicles has already been done in Kingston and Waterloo (which wasn't supposed to be a glorified test track for these vehicles, but has track geometry that's far more complex than anything they will find on Line 5). So really, what is the rush for the vehicles? Is it to make Bombardier look bad? To manufacture some sort of crisis to justify their contract with Alstom?

Well, if I were in their shoes, ignoring the chatter here in these boards about who's the root cause of the delays, it matters because it provides confidence that they can meet the expected delivery cadence. They don't care that much about testing them right now, they want an early indicator that they won't end up like KW did with a bright shiny line with no trains to run on it. Given ION and the TTC streetcars, Metrolinx is and should be very concerned right now about things arriving on schedule, not letting it slide and then two years down the road raise the alarm

 

[nfitz]

All I am saying is:

if the contract is as cut and dried as Metrolinx says it is.....there are penalties due now for failure to deliver (for any reason) 6 by Feb 1 and there are substantial penalties that BBD has to pay that are now due. Since they have shared som much detail from the contract they should go all the way and tell us how much they believe they are owed and by when.

That's generally not how damages work. Metrolinx would normally need to document the actual damages incurred to the court. All I'm seeing is the legal costs for making this claim.

It's pretty clear that Metrolinx is being obstructive and non-cooperative. This is why Metrolinx lost the first lawsuit they started, resulting in them (i.e. us the taxpayers) having to pay damages to Bombardier in the negotiated settlement after the courts ripped Metrolinx a new one.

All Metrolinx is going to achieve here (outside the public relations issues for Bombardier), is costing the taxpayers even more money.

 

[TOareaFan]

That's generally not how damages work. Metrolinx would normally need to document the actual damages incurred to the court. All I'm seeing is the legal costs for making this claim.

I know how damages normally work but ML has been saying there are clear penalties just for missing the deadline.....I think we the taxpayer should call them on that and ask them to show us the contract and what the penalties are. Like you, I think they would normally have to show that they have real damages.....given their recent history in court dealings, I don't think they should be allowed to just say this stuff to the media and not have to prove it.

It's pretty clear that Metrolinx is being obstructive and non-cooperative. This is why Metrolinx lost the first lawsuit they started, resulting in them (i.e. us the taxpayers) having to pay damages to Bombardier in the negotiated settlement after the courts ripped Metrolinx a new one.

All Metrolinx is going to achieve here (outside the public relations issues for Bombardier), is costing the taxpayers even more money.

This is what I think is happening too.....but they are posturing that it is different this time....so I say they should show us.

 

[nfitz]

I know how damages normally work but ML has been saying there are clear penalties just for missing the deadline.....I think we the taxpayer should call them on that and ask them to show us the contract and what the penalties are. Like you, I think they would normally have to show that they have real damages.....given their recent history in court dealings, I don't think they should be allowed to just say this stuff to the media and not have to prove it.

Based on the last trip Metrolinx had to court, and how the finding differed so radically with what Metrolinx was telling everyone ... and reading through their LRT and Presto agreements with the city - it's pretty clear that Metrolinx is completely out of it's depth on legal issues.

This is what I think is happening too.....but they are posturing that it is different this time....so I say they should show us.

Ah, I'm just assuming they are once again, completely out-to-lunch. But you are correct. Where's the beef? Shows us the contract!

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Well, if I were in their shoes, ignoring the chatter here in these boards about who's the root cause of the delays, it matters because it provides confidence that they can meet the expected delivery cadence. They don't care that much about testing them right now, they want an early indicator that they won't end up like KW did with a bright shiny line with no trains to run on it. Given ION and the TTC streetcars, Metrolinx is and should be very concerned right now about things arriving on schedule, not letting it slide and then two years down the road raise the alarm

Metrolinx by being obstructive and non-cooperative delayed progress on the cars for the Region of Waterloo. This delay got further compounded by Metrolinx's failed attempt to get out of the vehicle procurement contract which jeopardized the existence of the vehicle as a product.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Metrolinx has to authorize delivery before Metrolinx can get them delivered. The first vehicle was delivered late because Metrolinx's "inspector" found that the vehicle required "corrections and adjustments" without specifying what exactly was wrong with it. If they are delivering the first 6 by truck as it seems they are, it takes a lot of time and a lot of paperwork to book a truck of that size with the required police escort. Not to mention the fact that the truck company has to have time in its schedule for the shipment. Metrolinx and Crosslinx would have been better off ensuring that they could be delivered by rail. You can ship multiple vehicles that way.



Where could Metrolinx possibly run them? The only thing they can possibly do is clearance testing in the yard and shop. They have no track to test on and no track systems to test either. Most of the vehicle control system testing for these vehicles has already been done in Kingston and Waterloo (which wasn't supposed to be a glorified test track for these vehicles, but has track geometry that's far more complex than anything they will find on Line 5). So really, what is the rush for the vehicles? Is it to make Bombardier look bad? To manufacture some sort of crisis to justify their contract with Alstom?

It’s a good point. It would almost be smarter to have Bombardier hold onto the cars until Metrolinx has some track to run them.

 

[drum118]

It’s a good point. It would almost be smarter to have Bombardier hold onto the cars until Metrolinx has some track to run them.

They have the yard and 10 km underground. Once the tracks to/from the yard for Mount Dennis Station are in place, it will start to do some testing. Later this year, Metrolinx will have access to the underground once the West Portal opening is finish.

 

[Admiral Beez]

They have the yard and 10 km underground. Once the tracks to/from the yard for Mount Dennis Station are in place, it will start to do some testing. Later this year, Metrolinx will have access to the underground once the West Portal opening is finish.

Ah, ok. All I ever see if the area around Leslie and Eglinton, which never seems to show any visible progress.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What will they do with the static light rail vehicles? They got three so far. Is the power on at the Mt. Dennis yard? Can they move them by electricity? Or will they be pushed around by diesel locomotives or service vehicles? Or will they look and feel the pretty body, floor, and windows? They could do that at the factory.

 

[nfitz]

They have the yard and 10 km underground.

What do they do, portage the vehicle through the unfinished stations?

I'm not aware of any catenary underground yet. How much catenary is there in the yard?

 

[KevinT]

I sure hope it won't be like Waterloo:

BBD: "Hey we've got some of your trains ready."
Region: "We don't want them until we've got our FIE figured out "
BBD: "How about now? We've built a bunch more, they're really shiny."
Region: "Nah, we're good."
BBD: "Look, these things are starting to pile up, and you really should have your FIE sorted out by now."
Region: "Okay, we'll take like, half."
BBD: "Alright. Say, how's that FIE coming along anyway?"
Region: "We've picked it out, will you install it for us?"
BBD: "Sure, have your lawyers call our lawyers to work out a contract."
- time passes -
Region: "The first bits of FIE will be there in July."
BBD: "Seriously, July? We had the first production train ready like a year ago."
Region: "Yeah, we know. Oh, can you get it all installed and commissioned by September? We've got a deadline to meet."
BBD: "We'll do our best."
- September deadline passes -
Region, to press: "It's all Bombardier's fault!"

(Note: I'm pretty sure that a lot of the region's FIE delays fell at the feet of Metrolinx, as I have a vague recollection that they were going to spec it, but still...)

 

[timio]

They can do in place testing, maintenance training, OMSF clearance testing, emergency drills, and whatever else ION was able to do in the long wait between the first and second vehicles being delivered.

Trains don't need to be mobile to be useful.

 

[drum118]

What do they do, portage the vehicle through the unfinished stations?

I'm not aware of any catenary underground yet. How much catenary is there in the yard?

The yard is 100% complete since Sept including catenary. Other than what Metrolinx has posted, can't tell you if catenary is up in the tunnel. As for stations, no idea what they look like other than Mount Dennis that is ready for tracks and catenary.