Urban Sky
Senior Member
Tracks can only be abandoned after successfully filing an abandonment request, at which point VIA could buy the line for scrap value…
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Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor
- Thread starter Urban Sky
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
Google is your friend
- Paul
Rail News - VIA Rail to upgrade Chatham Subdivision line, build station. For Railroad Career Professionals
www.progressiverailroading.com
crs1026
Superstar
Also
media.viarail.ca
VIA RAIL EXPANDS ITS RAIL NETWORK BY ACQUIRING THE BROCKVILLE SUBDIVISION | VIA Rail
Montreal, November 23, 2015 – VIA Rail Canada (VIA Rail) is pleased to announce it acquired the Brockville Subdivision, consisting of 45 kilometers (28 miles) of single track between Smiths Falls and Brockville, in Ontario.
media.viarail.ca
crs1026
Superstar
roger1818
Senior Member
Just like the demise of Grehound in Ontario and Quebec was the catalyst for the provincialisation of intercity bus? Tell that to all the communities that lost intercity bus service as a result. Yes private companies started up providing express service to the major cities but a lot of towns in eastern (and probably southern) Ontario that lost intercity bus service. I was hoping that Ontario Northland would fill in the gap, but Doug Ford did nothing.
So go ahead and dream about the demise of VIA, but the probable outcome would be the loss of all intercity rail in Canada (other than the Northlander and a few trains operated by the FN).
micheal_can
Senior Member
"The Amtrak Borealis, a new rail line connecting Chicago and Minneapolis-St. Paul, has only been operating for about a month, but already thousands of passengers have taken the trip. That ridership has exceeded Amtrak’s expectations—and hints at the growing desire among Americans to travel by train. "
"Amtrak’s Borealis launched on May 21. In June, the line’s first full month of service, it saw more than 18,500 riders. That averages about 300 passengers a day, in each direction."
"That total ridership exceeded Amtrak’s forecasts—which Ray Lang, vice president of Amtrak State Supported Service, says were already “very optimistic”—by 2,900 passengers. “What that really means,” he adds, “is that there’s a strong demand for short-distance corridor trains in the United States to provide that transportation option for travelers that don’t want to drive or fly.” "
"“What we’ve done here is really increased the level of utility and become a more relevant transportation provider,” Lang says. "
". For many of those passengers, they may not want to have a car on campus, flying often doesn’t make sense, and they may find the intercity bus network lacking. In June, for example, Coach USA—which operates buses between Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, and other routes—filed for bankruptcy. "
Borealis (train) - Wikipedia
roger1818
Senior Member
"The Amtrak Borealis, a new rail line connecting Chicago and Minneapolis-St. Paul, has only been operating for about a month, but already thousands of passengers have taken the trip. That ridership has exceeded Amtrak’s expectations—and hints at the growing desire among Americans to travel by train. "
"Amtrak’s Borealis launched on May 21. In June, the line’s first full month of service, it saw more than 18,500 riders. That averages about 300 passengers a day, in each direction."
"That total ridership exceeded Amtrak’s forecasts—which Ray Lang, vice president of Amtrak State Supported Service, says were already “very optimistic”—by 2,900 passengers. “What that really means,” he adds, “is that there’s a strong demand for short-distance corridor trains in the United States to provide that transportation option for travelers that don’t want to drive or fly.” "
"“What we’ve done here is really increased the level of utility and become a more relevant transportation provider,” Lang says. "
". For many of those passengers, they may not want to have a car on campus, flying often doesn’t make sense, and they may find the intercity bus network lacking. In June, for example, Coach USA—which operates buses between Madison, Milwaukee, Chicago, and other routes—filed for bankruptcy. "
Borealis (train) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
That’s good to hear but shouldn’t come as any great surprise. Canadians often underestimate the population of American cities. The populations of the metropolitan areas on the route are as follows;
| City | State(s) | Population 2020 Census[2] |
| Chicago-Naperville-Joliet | IL | 9,618,502 |
| Milwaukee-Waukesha | WI | 1,574,731 |
| Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington | MN, WI | 3,690,261 |
That isn’t all that different from the TOM corridor, though the overall distance of the Borealis is a tiny bit further.
| Geographic name | Province | Population |
| Toronto | Ontario | 6,202,225 |
| Ottawa–Gatineau | Ontario/Quebec | 1,488,307 |
| Montreal | Quebec | 4,291,732 |
micheal_can
Senior Member
I was thinking more of the Prairie triangle of Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina and Winnipeg to be analogous to this as what they did was take the most used section of the Empire Builder and make it its own route. I know population and distances are not quite the same, but just like there is an extra Edmonton - Vancouver train, adding a separate service may work.
For context:
both Empire Builder and Borealis are daily trains.
Edmonton - Winnipeg is about 1300km/800miles
Calgary - Winnipeg is also about 1300km/800miles
| Geographic Name | Province | Population |
Calgary - Wikipedia | Alberta | 1,306,784 |
Edmonton - Wikipedia | Alberta | 1,010,899 |
Saskatoon - Wikipedia | Saskatchewan | 266,141 |
Regina, Saskatchewan - Wikipedia | Saskatchewan | 226,404 |
Winnipeg - Wikipedia | Manitoba | 749,607 |
nfitz
Superstar
That's not really an apples to apples comparison. For Chicago you've included not just Chicago and it's neighbouring cities, and includes parts of Wisconsin and Indiana. And although the northwest of Indiana might be fare game, it actually stretches all the way around Lake Michigan, to Michigan!
For comparison, it looks like you've used CSA for Chicago, an area of is 28,120 km². By comparison, for Toronto you've used just the Toronto CMA, which doesn't even include Oshawa or Burlington! A, about a fraction of the area, at 5,902 km². A better comparison would be the either the Golden Horseshoe (10,097 km² and a 2021 population of 9,765,188) or the Greater Golden Horseshoe (31,562 km² and a population of 9,765,188.
Also, this ignores that the Chicago population is decreasing, dropping from 9,618,502 in 2020 to 9,441,957 in 2022. Meanwhile the Golden Horseshoe increased from 9,765,188 in 2021 to 10,733,126 in 2023. Even the Toronto CMA increased by over 330,000 with the 2023 estimate of 6,804,847 (there's also a 270,000 additional people, presumably in the post-census correction for 2021).
If the (smaller) Golden Horseshoe is the best comparison, the latest (2022/2023) figure are 9,441,957 for Chicago to 10,733,126 for Toronto.
In many ways, the cities are very comparable; except that Chicago has been stagnating for decades - and is now shrinking. While Toronto is still growing very fast.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Let‘s also not forget that we are talking about one single daily frequency, which doubled the existing daily frequency (the Empire Builder) between Milwaukee and Minneapolis, two cities which are indeed almost the same distance as Toronto-Montreal (325 vs. 335 miles):
Source: NARP
Note: additional Amtrak services operate between Chicago and Milwaukee (7 trains per day, including the Borealis, but excluding the Empire Builder which doesn‘t carry local traffic on this segment)
The demand is probably strong enough to support a third frequency, but certainly nothing close to the 6 daily frequencies we have between Toronto and Montreal…
Source: NARP
Note: additional Amtrak services operate between Chicago and Milwaukee (7 trains per day, including the Borealis, but excluding the Empire Builder which doesn‘t carry local traffic on this segment)
The demand is probably strong enough to support a third frequency, but certainly nothing close to the 6 daily frequencies we have between Toronto and Montreal…
micheal_can
Senior Member
In other words, build what is needed. Amtrak took a chance and it is showing that one more frequency was needed and is being well used. If Via ever has the budget and equipment, maybe they could learn from Amtrak. Most of Canada, outside of the Corridor does not need more than 1 train a day. If we look at the Empire Builder,along parts of it it has up to 2 other services complementing the Empire Builder service. Where the most demand is, has more frequency. So, if we use that idea and look at any of the LDS in Canada and apply it there, Using the Canadian or the Ocean, there are parts of it that will only ever see it. In fact, with the Ocean, the section between Montreal and Quebec City (Levis) also have Corridor trains on them. A Saint Jon - Halifax route has been discussed, but no Levis - Moncton route has been, for good reason. There really isn't the demand. So, take what we have, and complement where it can work and be able to support itself.The people who wish to ride the land yacht can,and the people that want realistic,useful transportation also can.
C_Johnson_1995
New Member
To be honest, I don't personally see interprovincial routes as a priority. The Canadian, Ocean, and Skeena are all rather uncessesary services that aren't entirely worthy of their subsidies, but maybe not worth the agony of cutting right now.
The only sticking point is TO/OTT to Montreal, but while I don't have a good answer for that now, the demand is arguably there so I'm sure Quebec and Ontario could come to an understanding on funding such a service. Even then, I don't see it as a huge priority given the resurgence in the Quebec Sovereignty movement.
But to your point on the Guelph Subdivision, I wouldn't be comfortable with Ontario handing the federal government money to improve a service. If Ontario makes an investment, it should be in control. If Ontario is required to hand over money to improve a transport service where the federal government is not, perhaps the federal government should step aside. Otherwise, if VIA insists on retaining its routes where Ontario is providing funding, Ontario should move in with an attempt to run VIA off the route in a similar manner to what happened with Niagara Falls and Kitchener.
micheal_can
Senior Member
When it comes to Amtrak, many of the states pay for part of the service to run. So, it could be one thing that could make the difference. Then the provinces could focus where they want to without needing to pay for it all.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I agree that the economic case for operating non-clrridor services is flimsy at best (though in the case of the Canadian only when a fleet-renewal happens to be overdue), but good luck getting the federal taxpayer to comit any money for providing capital (let alone: operating) funding once we‘ve gotten rid of VIA as Canada‘s passenger railroad. It‘s indeed not worth the agony.
Provided that HxR goes ahead as promised (either in the slower HFR or the faster HSR variant), isn‘t this a moot point by now?
The what? May I ask you when was the last time you stepped a foot into Quebec or talked to any Québecois(e)? The francophone majority might still not see the inclination to celebrate Canada Day (and honestly, why would anyone, given how we still treat the people from which we stole the lands to build our country?), but the question of independence is as irrelevant in the public mood here in Quebec, as it is in Bavaria, Scotland or Catalunya…
VIA will run increased services wherever it has the available fleet and incremental revenues exceed the incremental. If Ontario purchases the Western half of the Guelph Sub and fixes the slow orders while adding more sidings, any connection offered by VIA over the Northern route will have a much higher chance of becoming a viable business opportunity for VIA, while Ontario would retain full control through owning the infrastructure. That the Weston/Halton/Guelph Subs will become the primary routing for intercity trains towards SWO is an inevitability, but the Ontarian government holds all the keys to speed up or delay that transition.
If I was living in Ontario, I would hope that my provincial government knows better now than to rudely tell VIA to stay clear of planning any improvements on SWO, while pretending that Wynne‘s HSR were anything else than an insincere election stunt): That attitude (in constrast to the relentless lobbying by QC political and business leaders) is the sole reason why MTRL-QBEC has been included into the HxR scope and SWO hasn‘t…
The federal government announced and executed cuts to the Kitchener and Niagara Falls routes in 2012, GO started expanding its own services only afterwards, as exemplified for Niagara Falls on Wikipedia:
Ontario stepped up when VIA chose to sacrifice some SWO services when faced with budget cuts, not the other way round (i.e., Ontario forcing VIA to reduce its SWO services).
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