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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

I may agree with others though that it might be best to exclude cycle tracks from King completely. With the volume of pedestrians I can't see it working well. Same with QQW.

Queen's Quay is a multi-use trail, not a cycle track. I don't know how many more times that'll need to be said. The waterfront is not a street. It's a park. Parks get multi-use trails, which are open to bikes but must be shared with pedestrians. No different than Lakeshore East or the trail around Humber Bay.
 
Queen's Quay is a multi-use trail, not a cycle track.
Technically, it's a "Shared Use Trail"...but oddly, it's marked as a bike trail, with bike signal lights at intersections, and bike icons painted on it. You make a point alright Amnesia, just not the one you intend. That is *EXACTLY* the point 44 and others have been making. Take a bow!

The waterfront is not a street.
No kidding. Queen's Quay certainly is. And that's exactly what 44 referred to. And it's a debacle. You're a little late to the point. That is exactly the danger of the King Street Mall becoming if cycling is allowed there without "dedicated lanes". To quote you, how many times must that ("dedicated lanes" "segregated") be said?

Meantime, study this picture, even though small signs along the way state "Shared Use"...guess where the confusion comes from? And that, *yet again* is the point: It's a debacle of cyclists vs. pedestrians. I wonder why?

upload_2017-2-3_0-14-12.png

Bike traffic is up — way up — on the redesigned portion of Queens Quay that includes an extension of the Martin Goodman Trail on the south side of the street.

Despite some initial confusion about how bikes and pedestrians mix on the new section of trail, nearly 600 cyclists an hour are travelling the waterfront during some weekday and weekend periods, according to Waterfront Toronto, the agency in charge of the Queens Quay makeover, which officially opened in the summer.

That's how many bikes on average traveled through the Lower Simcoe intersection per hour between noon and 4 p.m. on the weekend of Sept. 5 and 6, during the popular Hot & Spicy Food Festival.

That's more than 10 times as many as the 40 cyclists an hour counted at the same intersection in 2007 during that event.

Nearly 600 cyclists an hour are also using the trail during the weekday rush. A Tuesday, Sept. 1 count showed bike traffic was highest around 8 a.m. and 5 p.m.

Waterfront officials expected lots of bike traffic on weekends but weren't sure the new trail would attract many commuters.

"What we're really excited to see is at peak rush-hour times, we get our biggest spikes. It's way more than what the city has seen on some of the new cycle tracks they've put in which also have seen impressive increases," said Waterfront's Mira Shenker.

On Thursday, Aug. 13, there were 4,571 cyclists on Queens Quay. On Monday, Sept. 7, the number had risen to 6,189.

Shenker, who commutes on the trail herself, said safe cycling infrastructure is attracting more cyclists.

A 2013 bike count west of the revitalized Queens Quay near Remembrance Dr. showed strong cycling numbers. Where the trail ended near Stadium Rd., barely any cyclists continued east in mixed traffic.

The new bi-directional trail on Queens Quay has been tweaked since it opened. Intersection audits showed "a lot of small conflicts — a cyclist stopping short or a pedestrian stopping short when they realized, 'Oops, I'm stepping into a bad location,’" said Shenker.

To address the confusion, Waterfront Toronto has painted "stop" in the blue bike boxes at the intersections to show cyclists where to brake, ahead of the pedestrian crossing area. It also posted signs warning cyclists to watch for pedestrians.

Jared Kolb of Cycle Toronto calls the new trail "a significant achievement." However, he said, pedestrians don't necessarily understand where they're supposed to stand and walk, and they tend to wander into the bike path.

"The pedestrian-cycling conflict was really elevated in August with that video capture of the pedestrian punching the cyclist. That reflects the negative side of the conflict that has been shifted onto pedestrians and cyclists through the design," he said.

"We're pretty new at designing protected bike lanes. It is a work in progress, and we've got design standards that are improving in the city, based on international best practices," he said. [...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...ail-attracts-nearly-600-cyclists-an-hour.html
[...]These signs denote that the Martin Goodman Trail, separated from the sidewalk and differentiated by asphalt, is not for pedestrians. But it’s not just for cyclists — joggers and roller bladers are also allowed. The sign also warns cyclists to keep to a speed limit of 20 km/h, a quick commuting pace. [...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-confusing-these-9-sign-changes-may-help.html
 

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Well done. I thoroughly enjoy seeing stuff like this. I may agree with others though that it might be best to exclude cycle tracks from King completely. With the volume of pedestrians I can't see it working well. Same with QQW. The concept is great, but in a way it's a victim of its own success. Too many cyclists, too many pedestrians, and I don't think any amount of signage will improve it.



This is something that a lot of people seem to forget. I think if those entrances and side streets didn't exist this project would've been greenlit years or decades ago. Adam Vaughan was one of the most urban and forward-thinking council members, and I believe he was opposed to a car-less central King. Not because he was pro-car or anti-pedestrian, rather because a car-free central King doesn't really work.

Each section will have to be looked at differently. There won't be a one-size fits all solution all the way along King.

From Spadina to Yonge it should work. I only can think of once entrance (TD) but they have a second entrance to the same garage off of Wellington.

This and Spadina to Bathurst are the 2 sections with the most slow downs.
 
Technically, it's a "Shared Use Trail"...but oddly, it's marked as a bike trail, with bike signal lights at intersections, and bike icons painted on it.

No. It's marked as a multi-use trail. There are signs all over the trail (e.g. this one and this one) that clearly indicate (A) a 20 km/h speed limit for bikes, and (B) that the path is shared. Bike signals and bike icons are standard for multi use trails:

Finch Trail: http://i.imgur.com/J6V6HGZ.jpg
Leaside Spur: http://i.imgur.com/7IIGNGm.jpg
Eglinton West: http://i.imgur.com/K5sNSia.jpg
Brickworks: http://i.imgur.com/CViqX2J.jpg
Gatineau Trail: http://i.imgur.com/Pw1vXt6.jpg
 
No. It's marked as a multi-use trail. There are signs all over the trail (e.g. this one and this one) that clearly indicate (A) a 20 km/h speed limit for bikes, and (B) that the path is shared. Bike signals and bike icons are standard for multi use trails:

Finch Trail: http://i.imgur.com/J6V6HGZ.jpg
Leaside Spur: http://i.imgur.com/7IIGNGm.jpg
Eglinton West: http://i.imgur.com/K5sNSia.jpg
Brickworks: http://i.imgur.com/CViqX2J.jpg
Gatineau Trail: http://i.imgur.com/Pw1vXt6.jpg
Meantime, study this picture, even though small signs along the way state "Shared Use"...guess where the confusion comes from?

Technically, it's a "Shared Use Trail"...but oddly, it's marked as a bike trail, with bike signal lights at intersections, and bike icons painted on it. You make a point alright Amnesia, just not the one you intend. That is *EXACTLY* the point 44 and others have been making. Take a bow!

Thank you for making my point yet again, Amnesia.
 
The confusion comes from people who apparently aren't able to read some signs, and assume that a bike on some other signs means that the trail is only for bikes.

The main worry I have are the pedestrians who don't look both ways before crossing the streetcar tracks.

I don't think a redesign of King Street would change a whole lot for those people.
 
The main worry I have are the pedestrians who don't look both ways before crossing the streetcar tracks. Unless they expect the streetcars to swerve out of their way.
Incidents of pedestrians being hit on Spadina and St Clair are legion. Just did a quick check on Google to find a litany of them, so will just post two references, seemingly contradictory, as further discussion is badly needed on this:
Pedestrians safer when there's a street car right-of-way: Study

By Kevin Connor, Toronto Sun

First posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 05:58 PM EDT

1297573651393_ORIGINAL.jpg

The St. Clair streetcars. (Toronto Sun files)

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TORONTO - Pedestrian injuries are reduced by half with dedicated right-of-way streetcar lanes, a new study by the Hospital for Sick Children has found.

Research has shown pedestrians and motorists are at more risk when the road is shared with streetcars, said the study, which focused on the safety impact of streetcar lanes, such as those installed on St. Clair Ave. W.

There was a 48% decrease in the rate of collisions on St. Clair between Weston Rd. and Yonge St. since the dedicated lanes were completed in 2010.

“Our findings suggest that dedicated streetcar lanes may be safer for pedestrians compared to a mixed traffic streetcar route and should be considered by city planners,” Dr. Andrew Howard, principal investigator of the study from Sick Kids said.

Police reports show that from 2000 to 2011 there were 23,607 reported collisions between pedestrians and motor vehicles in the city, 441 of them on that stretch of St. Clair.

The study found there was a reduction in pedestrian collisions post-construction, especially at major intersections such as Dufferin St. and Bathurst St.

“Some explanations for this could be better separation of pedestrians from motor vehicle traffic. The barriers along the platforms force pedestrians to cross the street at the light, rather than jaywalk from the middle of the street,” Howard said. “The new design also prevents cars from going straight through St. Clair or turning left from streets where there is no signalized intersection, thereby reducing pedestrian-motor vehicle contact.”

The more widely used mixed traffic model requires passengers to enter and exit streetcars where there may not be lights or other traffic signals, forcing them into a more potentially dangerous situation.

“The goals of the St. Clair redesign were to improve transit reliability and efficiency, and our research demonstrates positive impacts on pedestrian safety as well,” Howard said.
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/18/pedestrians-safer-when-theres-a-street-car-right-of-way-study

St. Clair streetcar Toronto’s deadliest for pedestrians


Five people killed by streetcars on St. Clair since November 2013, more than any other route in the city, TTC figures show

By Eric Andrew-GeeStaff Reporter
Sat., May 9, 2015
Nine pedestrians have been killed by Toronto streetcars since 2010. Five of those fatal collisions were on St. Clair Ave. W.

The north Toronto street has become the city’s deadliest light rail route for people on foot, transit commission figures show, pointing to possible safety risks associated with the thoroughfare’s controversial separated tram lanes.

The TTC’s disclosure, made at the Star’s request, comes after one of its operators was charged with careless driving in a collision that killed an 80-year-old man at St. Clair Ave. W. and Arlington Ave. in March.

The St. Clair streetcar — running between Yonge St. and Gunns Loop — has been dogged by complaints since its renovation, maligned for cost overruns, interfering with first responders and slowing traffic.

Residents have also spoken up about apparent danger to pedestrians since reports of fatalities along the streetcar line began emerging steadily in the media.

Andrew Athanasiu, senior policy advisor for councillor Josh Matlow — whose Ward 22 contains the eastern-most stretch of the St. Clair streetcar — said Matlow’s office emailed the TTC about possibly installing guard rails along the right-of-way in November.

“They responded and said they are looking into it,” said Athanasiu.

“We’re looking forward to seeing a plan that will protect pedestrians.”

Defenders of the St. Clair streetcar say the road is safer now than it was before its overhaul. They point to studies showing fewer total collisions with pedestrians since roadwork was finished in 2010.

But city politicians and transit experts have raised safety issues connected with the “right-of-way” model used on St. Clair and Spadina Aves.

Streetcars move faster on dedicated tracks, and their location halfway across the road can encourage jaywalking, these people say.

Indeed, another pedestrian death on the TTC’s list was caused by the Spadina streetcar, and a cyclist was also killed on that route in 2010.

The TTC counts four pedestrian deaths caused by the St. Clair streetcar in recent years. However, the number rises to five if you count a November 2013 incident in which an 81-year-old woman was struck by a St. Clair streetcar and launched into a passing SUV near Yonge St. Her case isn’t included in the official figures because the woman wasn’t declared dead at the scene and the commission wasn’t notified of her death in hospital, said TTC spokesperson Brad Ross.

Ross noted that all but one of the deadly streetcar crashes since 2010 was deemed not preventable by TTC investigators.

He also argued that right-of-way tracks make riders less likely to be hit by other vehicles because they allow streetcars to stop at platforms separated from traffic.

“It is safer for our customers who are exiting and boarding our streetcars,” Ross said.

City councillor Joe Mihevc, whose Ward 21 straddles St. Clair Ave. W., said pedestrian death figures shouldn’t overshadow other safety gains produced by the dedicated streetcar lanes.

“There’s lies, damned lies, and then there’s data,” he said. “At the end of the day, is St. Clair a safer street now than it was pre-right-of-way? Absolutely it is. That’s the most important stat or piece of data that needs to be considered here.”

A 2014 study co-authored by SickKids researcher Dr. Andrew Howard showed a dramatic overall decrease in collisions involving pedestrians since the separated streetcar line was put in place.

Mihevc suggested that a rise in risky crossing could be partly responsible for the spike in fatal collisions with pedestrians. Some walkers treat the streetcar lanes like traffic islands, he said, and pause on the right-of-way while they cross the street.

He also noted that streetcars generally move faster than before — nominally one advantage of a dedicated line — and that their newfound velocity could make them more dangerous.

“One of the things certainly on St. Clair is that streetcars are going faster than before because they’re not caught up in mixed traffic,” he said.

Daniel Hammond, director of Transport Action Ontario, also suggested that the relatively large space between stops on the route could be letting Toronto’s 30-ton trams build up momentum, making collisions more violent. “On St. Clair the spacing between the stops is a little further, so it allows the streetcars to accelerate,” he said.

Another factor in the spate of deaths may be age. All five of the pedestrians killed in streetcar collisions on St. Clair were over 65.

A 2012 Coroner’s review found that seniors made up a hugely disproportionate number of the pedestrian deaths in Ontario, accounting for 36 per cent of fatalities and just 13.2 per cent of the general population.

The neighbourhoods along St. Clair Ave. W. between Oakwood Ave. and Yonge St. contain an average of about 40 per cent more seniors than Toronto at large, according to city figures.

Mihevc said a public education campaign around safe road-crossing could lessen some of the risk for seniors and other residents.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...etcar-torontos-deadliest-for-pedestrians.html
 
The confusion comes from people who apparently aren't able to read some signs, and assume that a bike on some other signs means that the trail is only for bikes.



I don't think a redesign of King Street would change a whole lot for those people.

No but the looks you get from some cyclists if you step on the trail makes pedestrians feel unwelcome.
 
No. It's marked as a multi-use trail. There are signs all over the trail (e.g. this one and this one) that clearly indicate (A) a 20 km/h speed limit for bikes, and (B) that the path is shared. Bike signals and bike icons are standard for multi use trails:

Finch Trail: http://i.imgur.com/J6V6HGZ.jpg
Leaside Spur: http://i.imgur.com/7IIGNGm.jpg
Eglinton West: http://i.imgur.com/K5sNSia.jpg
Brickworks: http://i.imgur.com/CViqX2J.jpg
Gatineau Trail: http://i.imgur.com/Pw1vXt6.jpg
I think the confusion comes from the fact that there's a wide sidewalk that's clearly for pedestrians only right beside the mixed use trail. The trail was put there to give cyclists a place to ride, and when that trail is next to a sidewalk it's intuitive to think that the trail is for cyclists and the sidewalk is for pedestrians. No amount of signage will clear up that confusion. It's poorly designed.

On multi-use trails where there's no sidewalk, people mix more naturally.
 
That's the example that comes to my mind too, and as both an avid cyclist and avid pedestrian, I hate cycling/walking through there, one is tense from being on edge all the time with rare occasions when it's deserted. I honestly prefer to cycle on the road to prevent cyclist/pedestrian collisions, it's mayhem.

On King, since consensus is pretty much that some form of *limited access for vehicles* is needed (but no through traffic), that too can be used for cyclists, but it will not be anywhere near optimal for cycling save to a specific destination down there. (Edit: Note the "No Cycling" sign upper left top pic) Pedestrians will be swarming all over, it will be prone to collisions, but there's really not much that can be done to prevent stupidity. My biggest concern then is that the streetcars can make good time through there without having to go slow for the mindless pedestrians.

Note the sense of being oblivious to the trams, Youtube vids clearly show the trams moving slowly and pedestrians darting across the mall in front of the trams. That's really what we need to address now that most of us agree cycling lanes won't work. I look at that stretch as a cyclist, and my reaction is: "Get off and walk, it's way too dangerous and unpredictable". Note the angle the vehicles are parked at, btw. Further detail for discussion. Is King wide enough for right angle parking, or is it going to have to be parallel? I think the latter, but like to hear others views.

Even though "transit mall" and "pedestrian mall" overlap in design and principle, unlike the Melbourne mall above, the objective with the King St one is to move people across town as rapidly as possible. Fencing/barriers of some sort might have to be considered to at least channel pedestrians crossing (with a light) rather than just random sporadic as seen above.

Yeah the summer it opened I remember learning quick that it's safest to simply hop off and walk. I tried riding slow, and even then it was risky. But if not in a rush, it's sometimes nice to walk the bike.

The issue of streetcars in a pedestrian environment is a whole other ball game, and I think should be looked at very closely. And the TTC/City kinda admitted it doesn't work well in the last Waterfront Reset report. I don't blame the pedestrians for the slow orders, nor do I really blame the planners. When it comes to pedestrians, cyclists, and transit frequency Toronto is a victim of its own success. But yeah I think intermittent fencing should definitely be considered. Both for QQE and King.
 
@steveintoronto

Have you ever biked during Open Streets?

Pedestrians and cyclists and a million other street uses can mix very well. You just can't bike like you're in the Tour de France. You bike deliberately and make eye contact with other people using the street. It's really not difficult. Frankly, it's rather pleasant.

If you need a super highway, use Richmond/Adelaide. King won't be high speed for any mode, except for hopefully, transit. (Relative high speed compared to current conditions, but still, not exactly high speed).
 
No. It's marked as a multi-use trail. There are signs all over the trail (e.g. this one and this one) that clearly indicate (A) a 20 km/h speed limit for bikes, and (B) that the path is shared. Bike signals and bike icons are standard for multi use trails:

Finch Trail: http://i.imgur.com/J6V6HGZ.jpg
Leaside Spur: http://i.imgur.com/7IIGNGm.jpg
Eglinton West: http://i.imgur.com/K5sNSia.jpg
Brickworks: http://i.imgur.com/CViqX2J.jpg
Gatineau Trail: http://i.imgur.com/Pw1vXt6.jpg
The section along Queen's Quay is marked differently -- it's for bikes, roller bladers and runners, not walkers, so different from the rest of the MGT. Public walk abouts and "how to use the new QQ" documents have also stated that.
 
Pedestrians and cyclists and a million other street uses can mix very well.
OK, then perhaps you can provide a reference for that? I get the distinct impression that I've seen a lot more pedestrian/transit malls across Europe and down the US than you have, but feel free to prove me wrong. There's a very good reason Melbourne and other cities ban bicycle riding on their transit malls.

Reference please.
Have you ever biked during Open Streets?
Well Zach, pardon it having to be me to point out to you that King Street during rush hour is hardly representative of "Open Streets".

And yes, of course I have. Have you ever been to sea, Billy?
 
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The section along Queen's Quay is marked differently -- it's for bikes, roller bladers and runners, not walkers, so different from the rest of the MGT. Public walk abouts and "how to use the new QQ" documents have also stated that.
Indeed, and even if it wasn't, the confusion is the issue rather than the segregation itself. The Queen's Quay model is yet one more not to repeat in Toronto, and esp on the King Transit Mall, save for certain sections perhaps. A number of posters have rightly pointed out that land use changes dramatically in sections of King.
 

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