King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[reaperexpress]

Of course the city can do red light cameras but I dont think you can source something saying red light running is the primary cause of the delays?

Its people who enter the intersection on a green light and end up stuck there blocking streetcars. Question is whether you can actually call that red light running if theyre in the intersection during a red light?

I never said that red light running is the primary source of delays. I said it's most of the infractions. Everyone who is illegally going straight at the intersections is now running a red light with the new setup.

It may be true that the cars blocking intersections cause the most delays, but if those cars hadn't illegally gone straight at intersections, most of them wouldn't be there in the first place.

Furthermore, if the only cars on King Street were the ones that are actually allowed to be there (accessing that particular block), there would be very few cars in total, vastly reducing the chance of the intersection exit being blocked, which is the situation where people obstruct the intersection.

 

[DSC]

I never said that red light running is the primary source of delays. I said it's most of the infractions. Everyone who is illegally going straight at the intersections is now running a red light with the new setup.

It may be true that the cars blocking intersections cause the most delays, but if those cars hadn't illegally gone straight at intersections, most of them wouldn't be there in the first place.

Furthermore, if the only cars on King Street were the ones that are actually allowed to be there (accessing that particular block), there would be very few cars in total, vastly reducing the chance of the intersection exit being blocked, which is the situation where people obstruct the intersection.

I certainly agree that, though there are certainly still some vehicles using King like a 'normal' east-west street, most of the 'blockages' on the King Transit Mall are caused by 'box blocking'' and these are almost all caused by vehicles legally driving on the north-south streets who enter the King intersections and 'get stuck'. The new traffic lights seem to make it a bit clearer and can be enforced with red-light cameras and the City's new Traffic Agents do a great job in keeping the intersections clear but they are not there 24/7.

 

[afransen]

Is there possibility of automated enforcement of blocking the box? It's perhaps a bit less cut and dried as red light running, in that I'm not sure we should fine people who are able to clear the intersection within a short period of seconds. Perhaps fine people who are in the intersection for an entire cycle? Or fine repeat offenders (send warnings ahead of time).

Many intersections downtown fail because of blocking the box and it seriously degrades capacity and movement for transit vehicles.

I know Toronto asked the province to increase the fine to $450 from $80, but TPS only issued 122 citations in a year. Considering this happens tens of thousands of times a day, I think the problem is enforcement, not the fine. If anything, raising the fine to $450 seems like it would make it less likely for police to enforce it out of pity.

Automated enforcement of a lower dollar value seems like it would do more to change behaviour. I'm not sure it is so much worse than illegally parking to warrant a fine of $450.

 

[reaperexpress]

Is there possibility of automated enforcement of blocking the box? It's perhaps a bit less cut and dried as red light running, in that I'm not sure we should fine people who are able to clear the intersection within a short period of seconds. Perhaps fine people who are in the intersection for an entire cycle? Or fine repeat offenders (send warnings ahead of time).

Many intersections downtown fail because of blocking the box and it seriously degrades capacity and movement for transit vehicles.

You mean other than the reasons the City stated in the report, notably in the quote a couple posts above yours?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The problem is that following rules is viewed as option in the lack of strict, uncompromising enforcement. Running red lights isn't an exception that only happens long King - pushing the boundaries had been so normalized.

AoD

 

[afransen]

As you mentioned:

The longer-term plan entails the deployment of automated enforcement along the King Street corridor. Whereas the City has the legal authority and contracted services in place to implement cameras for red light running, there are still further changes required to the Ontario Highway Traffic Act (HTA) to enable the City the full authority to implement automated enforcement over the bylaw infraction of entering an intersection on a green light and effectively blocking the intersection to opposing traffic.

The city should really be asking for the HTA amendment. Asking to up the fine to $450 is misguided, since the existing fine goes essentially entirely unenforced.

 

[evandyk]

I feel like although we shouldn’t need to assign human wardens to every intersection at all hours, we could get a lot of bang for our buck by deploying these wardens at more intersections for more hours.

 

[chrisw]

I feel like although we shouldn’t need to assign human wardens to every intersection at all hours, we could get a lot of bang for our buck by deploying these wardens at more intersections for more hours.

From before, "a rapid deterioration of performance" after the traffic agents head home for the day. Bad compliance without the traffic agents. A long line of cars at 6:03, 3 minutes after they got off their shift.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756017332512510405

 

[Steve X]

From before, "a rapid deterioration of performance" after the traffic agents head home for the day. Bad compliance without the traffic agents. A long line of cars at 6:03, 3 minutes after they got off their shift.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1756017332512510405

A red light camera would work very well along with some overhead electronic signage. People still run the red anyways when they realize there is no green phase for them.

Also the amount of traffic blocking streetcars towards the priority corridor at Jarvis is also insane. With the detour onto Queen, it can take a streetcar just as long to turn from Parliament onto Queen and to reach the Jarvis stop than to travel between Jarvis to Bathurst. This Gardiner lane closure is really spilling over and affecting 504 King streetcar performance.

 

[chrisw]

I can't wait for red light cameras. Imagine someone getting 10 red light tickets in a row.

 

[slicecom]

The whole block is full of cars. They’ve been waiting at the red for 2 cycles so far. Just waiting for a streetcar to come honk them out of the way.

Oh they just ran the red.

 

[reaperexpress]

The whole block is full of cars. They’ve been waiting at the red for 2 cycles so far. Just waiting for a streetcar to come honk them out of the way.

Oh they just ran the red.

View attachment 559872

Good. People waiting for multiple cycles is a sign that the new red lights are working.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

Good. People waiting for multiple cycles is a sign that the new red lights are working.

That is not good.

It should be crystal clear to drivers that they must turn right, with no other option. The backup of cars will cause exactly the problem we want to avoid; blocking the intersection for multiple light cycles for streetcars.

At this point, maybe the City should install signs that say "YOU CANNOT GO STRAIGHT; TURN RIGHT F***WITS".

 

[TTCdinosaur]

Good. People waiting for multiple cycles is a sign that the new red lights are working.

While delaying transit to the point where it is unreliable and unusable. I feel like people here either have cars, don't go outside anymore or have a lot of time to spare. Perhaps bike in the summer, which to me is the wrong mode shift we want (transit to bikes, while people stay in their cars).

The bureaucracy in Canada is astoundingly incompetent and has no idea how to drive outcomes. They'll continue to bleed users as long as this keeps up - especially with the King/Church construction in August and the bus replacements on Spadina all summer, along with the 512 St Clair disruption (again). Who will willingly use this system unless you're one of those unfortunate souls that have to? It's hard to have any faith in the system getting better as we watch them blindly feel their way through solutions.

 

[reaperexpress]

That is not good.

It should be crystal clear to drivers that they must turn right, with no other option. The backup of cars will cause exactly the problem we want to avoid; blocking the intersection for multiple light cycles for streetcars.

At this point, maybe the City should install signs that say "YOU CANNOT GO STRAIGHT; TURN RIGHT F***WITS".

Obviously having a bunch of cars sitting on the tracks is not good, but it's a sign that the signals are having an effect. The more we screw over drivers who choose to illegally drive on King, the less likely they are to do it again.

There are already signs that tell drivers that they cannot go straight. That's the "No Thru / No Left Turn" signs.