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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

I would agree on the transit file Tory has been disappointingly similar to Ford.

It's hard to imagine this wouldn't proceed if local councillors are okay with it though. Is there anything for him to lose politically by not opposing it?
 
TransitBart said:
That is one view.

I don't see many similarities. I see things beginning to get done. And I see a focus on public transit which has been absent for a generation.
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For all this focus, Tory's transit proposals have been more wasteful than anything we've seen out of Ford. In particularly, SmartTrack, which will move only 14,000 people per day (less than 40 bus routes), is even worse than the Sheppars Line in terms of dollars invested per rider.

He also hasn't begun to attempt to tackle Toronto's budgetary crisis, opting to rely on LTT and wishful thinking. He's set to implement cuts the the TTC subsidy far greater than what Ford did. He also continues to gut anti-poverty programs.

Tory's positions have been as as bad as Ford's, and in many cases significantly worse.
 
syn said:
It's hard to imagine this wouldn't proceed if local councillors are okay with it though. Is there anything for him to lose politically by not opposing it?
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The plain reality is that we are pretty close to gridlock down there. Removing a through route for autos, and taking away the existing left turns, will be a significant shock to many. There will be congestion created throughout the downtown core as drivers try to find alternate routes. It is not a win-win proposition - there will be pain points. (don't read this as my naysaying the idea - it's critical that we get transit moving along King and I'm supportive - I'm just being a realist about the impact on auto traffic. It will be very beneficial for transit (and perhaps urban form) but not beneficial for drivers.).

Politicians like Tory are gutless when there is a big angry part of the populace complaining about something. They hate being unpopular, regardless of whether the gain is worth the pain. I have little faith that Tory will hang tough on this one.

- Paul
 
It comes back to combining tunneling of the DRL with construction of an underground toll expressway for the core from Strachan to the DVP. That way you relieve surface traffic along King and other streets and provide a funding tool for the capital costs of tunneling the DRL. You can still keep the free elevated Gardiner that people on here seem to love. I'd like to see the same consideration for tunneling the Allen Expressway from Eglinton to the Gardiner as a toll route and combining it with construction of the western leg of the DRL. If this happened, you could eventually have ROW's for the streetcars on King, Queen, College, etc. without impacting auto traffic flows.
 
TransitBart said:
I see things beginning to get done. And I see a focus on public transit which has been absent for a generation.
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Absent during the last mayor you mean. All the things actually getting built started during Miller's term.

TheTigerMaster said:
For all this focus, Tory's transit proposals have been more wasteful than anything we've seen out of Ford.
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Of course Ford wasn't wasteful, he spent nothing. The only thing that happened under Ford is that everything got slowed down. There is no project underway that can be attributed to Ford, and the projects underway that started under Miller he voted against. He was anti spending, which he hid by shaking hands with people in social housing and chanting subways without pushing them through.

crs1026 said:
Politicians like Tory are gutless when there is a big angry part of the populace complaining about something. They hate being unpopular, regardless of whether the gain is worth the pain. I have little faith that Tory will hang tough on this one.
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Of course he won't hang on it if it actually leads to something getting done. Transit plans are meaningless unless they get built. Something must replace the SRT, and it has now been talked about for about 15 years. There are some voting to build the subway that may not even like the idea of a subway but accept that it is better than inaction. This subway could lead to less waste in the future because the only reason the Sheppard LRT has not been built is because of an even more expensive and lower ridership subway plan. After spending a fortune to build a Bloor extension to Scarborough Centre there will be less political capital available to spend a fortune building the Sheppard subway.
 
EnviroTO said:
Of course Ford wasn't wasteful, he spent nothing. The only thing that happened under Ford is that everything got slowed down. There is no project underway that can be attributed to Ford, and the projects underway that started under Miller he voted against. He was anti spending, which he hid by shaking hands with people in social housing and chanting subways without pushing them through.
.
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I wasn't a Miller fan at the time but I sure miss him now. Miller's downfall was lack of change management. He let his people push things too fast without building popular support. One example would be the garbage bins. I can remember how outraged people were at the time - the City's only explanation was "this is good for you, accept it". Now it seems so obvious, but no effort was made to sell the concept at the time. Same with the auto tax. A few people got on board at the time, and were allowed to sneer at those who weren't ready to accept the new ideas..... which gave rise to the perception of there being an "elite". Miller didn't manage the divisiveness, and Ford capitalised on it.

We are one adult conversation away from reverting to a pro-LRT policy for the city. All it will take is reality setting in about how expensive subways are and how even new tax vehicles won't fund all the transit we are planning. I don't think there is really an anti-Scarboro sentiment in the city - yet - but there will be backlash once it's apparent how the money is being gobbled up with the new subway thus denying other projects that are also needed.

As to the King transit mall, it will have its detractors. I don't agree with the Miller style unilateral implementation, but it will take unity and courage at City Hall to get it done. Not a place for the popularity-seekers.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I wasn't a Miller fan at the time but I sure miss him now. Miller's downfall was lack of change management. He let his people push things too fast without building popular support. One example would be the garbage bins. I can remember how outraged people were at the time - the City's only explanation was "this is good for you, accept it". Now it seems so obvious, but no effort was made to sell the concept at the time. Same with the auto tax. A few people got on board at the time, and were allowed to sneer at those who weren't ready to accept the new ideas..... which gave rise to the perception of there being an "elite". Miller didn't manage the divisiveness, and Ford capitalised on it.

We are one adult conversation away from reverting to a pro-LRT policy for the city. All it will take is reality setting in about how expensive subways are and how even new tax vehicles won't fund all the transit we are planning. I don't think there is really an anti-Scarboro sentiment in the city - yet - but there will be backlash once it's apparent how the money is being gobbled up with the new subway thus denying other projects that are also needed.

As to the King transit mall, it will have its detractors. I don't agree with the Miller style unilateral implementation, but it will take unity and courage at City Hall to get it done. Not a place for the popularity-seekers.

- Paul
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The Miller style - take this, I know what is best - begat Ford. I am probably not a fool and I resented David Miller the smarty pants. I felt like he was taking down to me. If you talk down enough to people, they will respond by electing a Ford or a Trump.

I don't miss David Miller at all. He was arrogant as hell.
 
TransitBart said:
The Miller style - take this, I know what is best - begat Ford. I am probably not a fool and I resented David Miller the smarty pants. I felt like he was taking down to me. If you talk down enough to people, they will respond by electing a Ford or a Trump.

I don't miss David Miller at all. He was arrogant as hell.
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One person's feeling of "being spoken down to" is another person's feeling of respect for leaders that have intelligence, clarity of communication and vision that is for the greater good.

All of which Ford lacked in spades and put us into a big damn mess.
 
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EnviroTO said:
Of course Ford wasn't wasteful, he spent nothing. The only thing that happened under Ford is that everything got slowed down. There is no project underway that can be attributed to Ford, and the projects underway that started under Miller he voted against. He was anti spending, which he hid by shaking hands with people in social housing and chanting subways without pushing them through.
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No. I was comparing Ford's transit proposals to Tory's transit proposals. I'm not discussing what actually got built.

The proposals put forward by the Tory administration are far more wasteful from a dollar per passenger perspective than anything the Fords put forward. For example, remember that Tory wants to spend more than $700 Million on a project that will move only 14,000 riders per day
 
Maybe one day we will get a mayor who strikes a balance between uncompromising practicality and patronizing idiocy. Moderates rarely do well in popular votes, though.
 
This sounds like a band aid solution. The proper solution is to build the downtown relief line.

Also I can't see how closing such a long section of King between Dufferin and River to cars is going to be at all popular, though it is unclear what this proposal actually includes and whether the section proposed to be closed to cars is a lot shorter.

Hopefully at the very least a permanent ban on TIFF, marathons, etc. shutting down the 504 King streetcar is included with this proposal.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
From CBC News:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/king-street-ttc-streetcar-dedicated-city-planning-1.3841304

AoD
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This sounds to me like Step 1 of a multi-step process to eventually get a car-free King St. The streetcar-only lanes I don't think are the preferred option, but merely the most politically palatable option at this time. This has a very "Bloor West bike lanes" kind of feel to it, minus the explicit "pilot" tag. They're both stepping stones to a larger (and better) plan.
 
gweed123 said:
This sounds to me like Step 1 of a multi-step process to eventually get a car-free King St. The streetcar-only lanes I don't think are the preferred option, but merely the most politically palatable option at this time. This has a very "Bloor West bike lanes" kind of feel to it, minus the explicit "pilot" tag. They're both stepping stones to a larger (and better) plan.
Click to expand...

Right -- I'd be fine coming pretty close to betting my life that this council will never support a car-free King St.
 
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