is racism common in Toronto?

[Tacoma]

So you're saying that if someone who wasn't in a position of power got up and said that some ethnic group was stupid and should be deported, it's not racist?

I don't understand the logic behind that one. And I still think most racism comes from ethnic communities.

I think you have to look at context. If that someone was just badly cut off in traffic and says in anger that that ethic group was stupid, can't drive and should be deported, then that person is making a racist remark. But the remark, in and of itself, doesn't make that person a racist any more than a woman who says "men are stupid" after a breakup makes her a sexist. Now, if that same powerless person really believes in that remark and starts a petition to deport all people of that race than that is racism; or the woman really believes men are stupid and refuses to hire men, then that's sexism.

Yeah, probably sounds shocking if you haven't been a part of these communities and seen it for yourself. The real world isn't so clear as "opressing majority vs. opressed minority", particularly in Toronto.

And the world isn't so clear as you seem to think that a racist is a racist just the same regardless of context of power. And regarding these racists ethnic communities, I am really interested in the reasons that led to your conclusion that they are the source of most racism in Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

That's the kind of talk that's use to silence any advocate of free speech. Throwing in the Nazi reference is overdone.

I'm all in favour of free speech. As long as one doesn't violate Canada's hate-crime laws in the process.

Throwing in the Nazi reference isn't overdone. That's where hatred leads to. And while you may prefer to ignore history, I'd sooner we keep remembering it.

 

[nfitz]

I think you have to look at context. If that someone was just badly cut off in traffic and says in anger that that ethic group was stupid, can't drive and should be deported, then that person is making a racist remark. But the remark, in and of itself, doesn't make that person a racist

Of course it makes them racist. I can't imagine someone making such a comment. It's a clear sign of racism.

I'm perplexed that in such a situation one would even notice the ethnic group of someone ... it's not something normally pays any attention to in passing. To be aware enough of something ethnicity in such a situation, to start making comments - even under one's breath - I think is sufficient evidence that one is a racist!

 

[tkip]

Some clarification....

A friend told me that the definition of racism or being a racist is to act on your bigoted views towards others.

So if you have thoughts or express views towards a different group of people or someone different than yourself, you're being bigoted but not necessarily racist.I think it's safe to say that we al have some form of bigoted views towards others around us.

It seems to be a human condition. More likely it's tought but I have the feeling that people are born hardwired to experience fear and anger towards those that are different from them. It's probably connected with our tribal origin.

But I'm putting into my own words how I interpret what I've read and heard from others.

The end result is the same. People all over the world have their own perception of different groups of people and it's always going to be there. Right or wrong. And the difference in values is going to filter things differently to each person.

Heck, I work in a hospital with various ethnic groups and hear constantly the comments they all say about each other and it's usually not pleasant. And don't get me started on what the genders say about one another.....

 

[Tewder]

Good post. 'Inappropriate' thoughts are an extremely natural and human phenomenon, even violent ones. We all have them and, usually, dismiss them as fast as they come, which is how the rational conscious mind negotiaties the irrational and unconsious one. This doesn't make us evil criminals, it makes us human; and so I sense that Nfitz's display of moral outrage at the mere idea that somebody may even have an impure 'thought' is more than a little disingenuous.

 

[Tacoma]

Of course it makes them racist. I can't imagine someone making such a comment. It's a clear sign of racism.

...

You said it: "It's a clear sign of racism" but, by itself, it's just a sign, which was my point.

 

[nfitz]

I sense that Nfitz's display of moral outrage at the mere idea that somebody may even have an impure 'thought' is more than a little disingenuous.

I'm not concerned about thoughts. I am only concerned about actions. Surely vocalizing one's thoughts, either verbally or in writing, is an action.

 

[Tewder]

I'm perplexed that in such a situation one would even notice the ethnic group of someone ... it's not something normally pays any attention to in passing. To be aware enough of something ethnicity in such a situation, to start making comments - even under one's breath - I think is sufficient evidence that one is a racist!

You are overstating your point. Our minds take everything in, including gender, race, the clothing one is wearing and what it says about somebody etc... and we all make instant judgements accordingly based on powerful unconsious filters and stores of information. Again, these things are hard-wired into us and you mustn't stigmatize people based on unrealistic demands of thought and behaviour that only a preprogramed cyborg could live up to!

 

[kool maudit]

if you are requesting that people stop noticing easily-correlated groupings of physical features and cultural quirks simply because some people may use such to discriminate.... you are something more than a utopian and perhaps not less than a lunatic. humanity has a nature.

 

[nfitz]

if you are requesting that people stop noticing easily-correlated groupings of physical features and cultural quirks simply because some people may use such to discriminate.... you are something more than a utopian and perhaps not less than a lunatic. humanity has a nature.

Five minutes after I see someone, how would I even remember the colour of their shirt? I'll confess gender may stick out, but I don't see that race would particularly stick out ... heck, with half the people in this town, it's hard to tell what they are ... I've known East Indians who I would swear are Greek looking at them; and Welsh that look more Mediterranean than anything else.

I'm not saying people may not notice ... but I'm perplexed on why anyone would suggest that this noticing allows one to vocalize stuff. It seems very bizarre in this extremely multicultural city where everyone you encounter, live with, work with, etc., are such different backgrounds. It must make for an interesting family meal if someone starts making such comments ... as I would think those members of the family who don't share the same background would not be very happy.

 

[jenny_zhang]

I am really interested in the reasons that led to your conclusion that they are the source of most racism in Toronto.

Personal experience growing up in them.

It seems very bizarre in this extremely multicultural city where everyone you encounter, live with, work with, etc., are such different backgrounds.

Not for everybody. My parents live in Markham and rarely encounter people of different ethnic groups in their day-to-day lives.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Sort of true. I know a Punjabi guy that told me if his daughter married outside of the faith/tribe he'd rather have her killed.... (But would he really?) Then there's some Orthodox Jews that attempt to stay away from contact with anyone outside their faith...hang in the Bathurst/Lawrence area and you'll understand. Or how about the Amish and buggy Mennonites? They openly scorn the "English"--aka everyone else around them that doesn't belong to their faith/community.

 

[Tewder]

Five minutes after I see someone, how would I even remember the colour of their shirt? I'll confess gender may stick out, but I don't see that race would particularly stick out ... heck, with half the people in this town, it's hard to tell what they are ... I've known East Indians who I would swear are Greek looking at them; and Welsh that look more Mediterranean than anything else.
[...]
I'm not saying people may not notice ... but I'm perplexed on why anyone would suggest that this noticing allows one to vocalize stuff.

I think you're missing the point. We're not commenting on the accuracy of what you remember or notice, only that you DO remember and notice to one degree or another. I'd be a little worried about you if you didn't. This doesn't make you a racist, and even if there is an instance when you comment on something you notice in a 'rude', offensive or inappropriate way you are not breaking the law or evil. People are sometimes just rude. It's not a crime to be rude.

Look, I agree with you that we should always strive to be more than the sum of our biological engineering. We are rational beings after all, rather than purely instinctual ones and we do have to live together and try to get along. This fetish and witch hunt for 'racists' is getting a little out of hand, however. If you 'prosecute' everybody for this there will eventually be nobody left.

 

[Disparishun]

^Sort of true. I know a Punjabi guy that told me if his daughter married outside of the faith/tribe he'd rather have her killed.... (But would he really?)

Strong sanctions against outmarriage are so typical of so many ethnic communities that, at times, it's almost hard to believe that that taboo is absent, much less frowned on, anywhere outside the inheritors of the Christian European Enlightenment -- that is, modern Western culture.

 

[nfitz]

This fetish and witch hunt for 'racists' is getting a little out of hand, however. If you 'prosecute' everybody for this there will eventually be nobody left.

One has to break a law to be prosecuted. I haven't seen an abundance of people doing that ... where do you get this 'everybody'?