is racism common in Toronto?

[drone]

I agree. If you're pissed off at someone and racial slurs/comments about their race are the first things that come to mind, this probably means you are a racist at some level. Think about it - whatever they did to piss you off, you immediately jump on their race of all the things you could possibly say to them when race probably played absolutely no part in what they did to you.

There are absolutely no situations where using a racial slur is justified or not racist. When you use them, you are inserting both yourself and the person you're insulting into some idiotic and discredited hierarchy of races in order to assert your superiority over them. By buying into this racial hierarchy, you're buying into racism. It's the same with sexist language, homophobic language, etc. It has absolutely no place in our society.

Does racism exist in Toronto? Of course it does, and it will continue to exist as long as we buy into race. Everyone's racist to some degree - as long as we recognize this as a flaw both in society and in ourselves, we can try and work against it and someday maybe, hopefully, it won't exist any more.

lol, what if it was the third or 4th thing you said about the person? Does that make someone a 4th rate racist. If I'm going to be racist..I want to be first rate

 

[X2 Buyer]

Are you a regular at that store? Was she? A lot of sales associates are very friendly with semi-regulars and regulars. Also, what were YOU wearing (i.e. did you look a little on the slobby side) vs what she was wearing (did she look more put-together than you)? I would be careful to call racism before these other issues, considering that it isn't weird to see Chinese people buy high end in this part of the country.

Good Point. I am writing the example not to define it as an absolute racism issue. If you take a look at any subtle moment, you could look at it from a lot of perspectives and angles. So elaborate it onto the case of the Chinese bulk food store, Eug cannot simply criticize the owner either. As far as I know we do like to go to Chinese food stores because they offer a lot products typically for Chinese traditional food, which I am pretty sure we cannot find any from the Portuguese store. As others mentioned already the language is another important fact as well.

Just for fulfilling your questions above yes I am probably semi-regular of the store and although I was not dressed up like a queen, only my regular office outlook, so I can assure you it was not improper. And just to imagine if anyone dressed up "cheap" so that the sales associate could treat their customers differently? If I would be the manager or owner of the store, definitely I would not allow such behaviour at all. Oh by the way the white lady from the conversation I do not think they have known each other before. If I could've ever determined otherwise, I would never take the subtle side of the "racist" at all.

 

[X2 Buyer]

Anyways, my GF's protest was not to give a tip, and told her why.

This is of course not a big deal in the greater scheme of things, but still it does illustrate the stupidity of racism that still does exist in Toronto.

For me it only shows a stubborn minded Chinese lady not racism at all. She must have similar experience previously where a Caucasian asked for the spicy source and could not take it after all. I am working around with Caucasian people, although all of them have claimed they could take spices in their food, only one out of ten really can from my observation.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Funny thing is I've never found Chinese food to be spicy. They're the only people I've come across that boil chicken, for example. Now, if you want a lot of salt, then Chinese food is the way to go, but for spicy I always go South Asian.

 

[urbandreamer]

Or Mexican, Middle Eastern, Korean, Vietnamese, Szechuan, Thai, Tex-Mex, Jamaican, Spanish etc cuisine. I love heat--spice it up or I'm not interested. (Cayenne pepper is what I carry around with me all the time, just in case...)

 

[Eug]

Funny thing is I've never found Chinese food to be spicy. They're the only people I've come across that boil chicken, for example. Now, if you want a lot of salt, then Chinese food is the way to go, but for spicy I always go South Asian.

Boiled chicken is common in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and North America too. Have you never heard of chicken soup, the stuff of all grandma cold remedies?

Properly cooked Chinese food isn't swimming in salt. Salt is useful of course, but high end Chinese restaurants refrain from using too much salt, just as better better bistros in North America try to do too. And I guess you have never eaten proper Hunan food or other heavily spiced Chinese food.

BTW, there was a hot pot place in Chinatown near Kensington market that has a dual-compartment hot pot that might be of interest to you. One half is a soup filled with chili peppers. The other is a non-spicy broth. You can try both, but if you find the chili side too hot, you can stick with the non-spicy broth. Not sure if it's still open though.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Properly cooked Chinese food isn't swimming in salt.

This is often the defense people put up whenever anyone complains about Chinese food. If it's bland, or too salty, it's not "real" or in this case "properly cooked" Chinese food. Well, if it's made by Chinese people, in a Chinese restaurant, given Chinese names, with typically Asian ingredients, then it's Chinese food. You can't just pick the stuff you like and disown the rest as not authentic Chinese.

I'm English (as in born in England) and we make some bloody awful food, but it's English nonetheless. We also make some fantastic food IMO with lamb, fish, etc that I quite like, but good or awful, it's all English.

 

[prosperegal]

This is often the defense people put up whenever anyone complains about Chinese food. If it's bland, or too salty, it's not "real" or in this case "properly cooked" Chinese food. Well, if it's made by Chinese people, in a Chinese restaurant, given Chinese names, with typically Asian ingredients, then it's Chinese food. You can't just pick the stuff you like and disown the rest as not authentic Chinese.

I'm English (as in born in England) and we make some bloody awful food, but it's English nonetheless. We also make some fantastic food IMO with lamb, fish, etc that I quite like, but good or awful, it's all English.

The thing about Chinese food is totally true. Hong Kong cuisine from a cha chaan teng is probably more "western" than some "Canadian/American" Chinese food, yet, it's still "Chinese" (or rather, Hong Kong), since it originated there (even if it uses non-Chinese ingredients). More "westernized" Chinese food at higher end restaurants like Lai Toh Heen is also better. It's the Manchu Wok stuff that's the "real" fake Chinese food.

 

[Eug]

This is often the defense people put up whenever anyone complains about Chinese food. If it's bland, or too salty, it's not "real" or in this case "properly cooked" Chinese food. Well, if it's made by Chinese people, in a Chinese restaurant, given Chinese names, with typically Asian ingredients, then it's Chinese food. You can't just pick the stuff you like and disown the rest as not authentic Chinese.

I'm English (as in born in England) and we make some bloody awful food, but it's English nonetheless. We also make some fantastic food IMO with lamb, fish, etc that I quite like, but good or awful, it's all English.

Well, that's like saying Kentucky Fried Chicken is representative of North American Food, or even that the Keg is representative for North American food. Actually, in a way as you suggest they are, but I don't go to the KFC to get good chicken, nor do I go to the Keg to impress someone with a great steak. KFC basically always has too much salt and too much oil IMO. The Keg is more variable, but that means it's very inconsistent. You should go to a higher end steak restaurant if you want more consistently good steak. Better quality cuts of beef, and better preparation.

It's interesting to note that especially in previous years but still true now, the English and Chinese menus are quite different at some Chinese restaurants. The English menus cater to those who expect a sort of North Americanized Chinese food, while the Chinese menus cater to those from Asia. Now it's true that often the Chinese-oriented Chinese food is cooked just as poorly, but sometimes it's prepared quite differently. For the Americanized Chinese food, many Chinese won't even recognize it. Hell, the practice of fortune cookies served in Chinese restaurants started in North America for example, and in fact they probably were invented by Japanese-Americans. You'd be hard-pressed to find a fortune cookie in an authentic Chinese restaurant in Asia, because it's not Chinese.

The food you mentioned is all English, but the English foodies know better than to go to bad English restaurants. They go to the good ones, and if espousing the virtues of English food to outsiders, will recommend the good restaurants only of course.

 

[prosperegal]

It's interesting to note that especially in previous years but still true now, the English and Chinese menus are quite different at some Chinese restaurants. The English menus cater to those who expect a sort of North Americanized Chinese food, while the Chinese menus cater to those from Asia. Now it's true that often the Chinese-oriented Chinese food is cooked just as poorly, but sometimes it's prepared quite differently. For the Americanized Chinese food, many Chinese won't even recognize it. Hell, the practice of fortune cookies served in Chinese restaurants started in North America for example, and in fact they probably were invented by Japanese-Americans. You'd be hard-pressed to find a fortune cookie in an authentic Chinese restaurant in Asia, because it's not Chinese.

This really needs to change. In fact, it should have changed like a decade ago. Not only has the palate of non-Chinese expanded, but tons of "jook sings"/CBCs (Canadian-born Chinese) have grown up with "real Chinese food." Most of us have limited Chinese literacy (or are completely illiterate in the language) and would prefer menus with English!

 

[Eug]

P.S. I had a Chinese friend in Tennessee who used to frequent the local Chinese restaurant with his mom and dad. However, that Chinese restaurant only catered to the local Americans, who had no concept of what authentic Chinese food was supposed to really taste like. Unfortunately, they weren't trained chefs anyway, and didn't really know how to make proper Chinese food. ie. Despite owning a restaurant, they were bad cooks. So, his dad used to take the ingredients and cook it himself at that restaurant. Besides using the usual ingredients, he'd also bring other stuff that wouldn't show up on local restaurant menus, like lobster, etc. He paid the restaurant for the use of the high-heat stoves and pans and everything so they didn't actually mind. That was the only way they could eat out and get proper Chinese food in Tennessee, with having food served to them and not having to do the dishes.

P.P.S. One thing that I found obnoxious but that used to be practiced commonly was different pricing too, even when the menu was the same. I found out when a Chinese family friend brought me to one restaurant. She ordered everything in Chinese and spoke Chinese to the wait staff. The bill was priced as the menu stated, without additional taxes. When I went back another day and ordered in English, the bill was as the menu stated, with PST and GST added on top of that. I discovered later that this was not uncommon practice at a lot of the downtown Chinese restaurants. Obnoxious. I'm told it's much less common now, but still occurs in some restaurants.

P.P.P.S. I went to a Vietnamese restaurant in Saskatchewan, and ordered pho. It came with enormous stew beef sized chunks of beef. I asked if this was some sort of regional thing because I hadn't seen it before. It was regional... because the local Reginans complained when they got the think slivers of beef, so changed the dish to suit the locals. Obviously it's nowhere near as bad in Toronto, but you're fooling yourself if you think the average "ethnic" restaurant in Toronto is truly representative of the food and the quality of that food in the original country.

 

[drewp]

I think there is a difference between being racist and being sterotypical. i do apologize if this has already been discussed. Most of us if not all are stereotypical.

When you stereotype it is making a generalization on a culture, like most indians are taxi cab drivers, chinese women don't know how to drive, italian men are mamas boy who will work in construction, and so forth.

Racism is when you actually HATE a culture or don't think they deserve to be equal to you, which i don't see too much in toronto. I sometimes think the worst case of racism stems from within individual cultures themself.

When someone branches out from the stereotypical view of one culture they are looked down upon by that culture more than by society.

 

[Eug]

I think there is a difference between being racist and being sterotypical. i do apologize if this has already been discussed. Most of us if not all are stereotypical.

When you stereotype it is making a generalization on a culture, like most indians are taxi cab drivers, chinese women don't know how to drive, italian men are mamas boy who will work in construction, and so forth.

Racism is when you actually HATE a culture or don't think they deserve to be equal to you, which i don't see too much in toronto. I sometimes think the worst case of racism stems from within individual cultures themself.

When someone branches out from the stereotypical view of one culture they are looked down upon by that culture more than by society.

Of course, a lot of racism is based on unjustified stereotypes.

Would it be justified if a trucking company boss refused to hire a Chinese woman simply because he "knows" that Chinese women cannot drive? Not only would that be racist, that would also be sexist.

Yes, most of us are probably guilty of some level of unjustified stereotyping of others, but the key is to be aware of it, and not let it could your judgement too much.

 

[drewp]

Of course, a lot of racism is based on unjustified stereotypes.

Would it be justified if a trucking company boss refused to hire a Chinese woman simply because he "knows" that Chinese women cannot drive? Not only would that be racist, that would also be sexist.

Yes, most of us are probably guilty of some level of unjustified stereotyping of others, but the key is to be aware of it, and not let it could your judgement too much.

racism is not based on steretypes but it is based on hatred which is taught. i think the two are completely different.

I make a lot of stereotypical comments to my friends all the time, as they do to me. Its funny to laugh at yourself and not take things too serious all the time.

We are such a tightly wound up society that has to watch everyhting we say.......LAUGH AT YOURSELF and the culture traditions you bring into this world

 

[drewp]

i forgot to add if you want ethnic food, you go to someones's house where the tradition really is. No restaurant can truly be ethnic.

Evreryone is invited to an italian feast at my house.