Gun Control

[junctionist]

How about competetive shooting? Thousands of responsible gun owners in Canada shoot in organized, highly regulated competitions run by sanctioning bodies like IPSC, ODPL, IDPA and so on.
How about for self defence in your home, I personally have 2 female friends, unrelated, who were victims of home invasion kidnappings.
When seconds count, the Police are only 9 minutes away.

Competitive shooting isn't a need. Invasion kidnappings? Such bizarre crimes will occur within a heavily armed society. A gun won't do anything against determined group of criminals.

 

[Rational1]

I've known more people who accidently shot and killed someone they mistook for a burglar than I do who have been killed in their own home by a stranger; that's a very rare crime, and is not worth the hundreds of accidental deaths that result.

Please name one of the people you know and give circumstances.

What statistics do you base your "Hundreds of accidental deaths" on? The Canadian Safety Council says, "Accidental shootings cause relatively few firearm-related deaths"

I don't think you actually know anyone that has accidentally shot anyone. This is a phenomenon more likely in the US, where people store loaded handguns in night stands and kitchen drawers. In Canada, handguns must be stored unloaded, in a gun safe.

If you outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns.

 

[Rational1]

Competitive shooting isn't a need.

Either is hockey, but more Canadians die or are injured or assaulted every year playing hockey than through competetive shooting. Should we outlaw hockey?

Invasion kidnappings? Such bizarre crimes will occur within a heavily armed society. A gun won't do anything against determined group of criminals.

The two kidnappings I refer to were in Montreal and Toronto. What do you base your statement on? The stastics prove you totally wrong. Crime rates in the U.S. in areas that allow concealed carry of firearms by private citizens have dramatically lower crime rates than neighbouring areas that don't allow it.

 

[homers]

Hang on a minute...lack of knowledge again shows its ugly head. I shoot competatively, my rifle has to be registered and I have to have a PAL. Ok wait a second ... its a PELLET gun!!! .177 caliber!!! Yes it has to be registered and I have to have a license. Why? Because it shoots the pellet at a speed just over the arbitrary FPS number of 500fps. Under that you can go to Walmart and buy one. I must be a crazed lunatic ... I have a $1400 scope on it so that with the utmost disipinle and control I can hit a 3/8 " target zone at 50 yds.
I take my scout troop out to the range to shoot pellets at targets. It is a wonderful sport for kids!!! They learn safety... always safety priority number one. They learn discipline... you have to clear your mind and zone in to your task. It is not like nintendo where it is zip zip zip with your thumb eating a bag of dorito's. You must control your rifle , ie cheek lock (look it up ) the absolute same EVERY time to be accurate. You need to control your breathing ... and then you need to slowly and deliberately squeeze the trigger....THEN you see the proudness and joy on their faces when they hit their mark. The number of parents who have told me their son has come home from his first trip to the range and has run to them proudly to show their targets and then have gone up and taped them up in their rooms... that is what is all about, and I can guarantee, yes I tell you that, with our training you arn't going to see any of my boys on the news shooting a stolen handgun, they will just ask to go to the range. They arn't going to burn down their home either by playing with matches because we teach them to build real fires properly... and cook on them, so they won't be in the closet experimenting with a lighter or matches.

 

[homers]

double post

 

[nfitz]

I'm intrigued at the number of pro-gun advocates who have felt the need to need to sign up to Urban Toronto today to spam us with pro-gun rhetoric. Perhaps the new posters would like to tell us a bit about themselves, and where in Toronto they are from.

 

[Rational1]

I confess to not looking up statistics, but hundreds of deaths was a pretty low estimate in my mind. According to this, in the USA in 1996 alone, there were over 1,000. In Canada in 2002, there were 816 firearm related deaths, (2.6 deaths per 100,000); only 0.4 deaths per 100,000 were homicides so that's almost 700 accidental deaths and suicides in Canada in a single year. While accidental shooting may well be relatively few, they are more common than gun-related murders that you seem concerned about.

To make such a huge lie that there aren't hundreds of deaths caused by accidental gun use is really astounding, and I'm amazed anyone would come here and say something that is obviously so completely false. As a new member, with only 3 posts ever on this forum, all on this thread, I can assume that you have no interest in Urban Toronto, but are only here as some gun lobbyist here to troll for trouble.

I also assume that you are not from Toronto, but likely from somewhere with a much higher crime rate?

I also question your need to respond to a post that was made over a year ago. Are you trolling?

Which part of Toronto are you from? How do you feel about the Gardiner?

To answer your questions:
80% of firearms deaths in Canada are suicides. Take away the guns and they'll still find a way to kill themselves. According to CityTV, the suicide rate didn't fall when they installed the barrier on the Bloor Viaduct (oh look, a double Toronto reference!, maybe I do live here)

By your numbers that leaves 163 deaths. The overwhelming majority of those will be gang related murders using illegal guns smuggled in from the U.S.

30% of all murders in Canada involve firearms, about the same for knifes. Should we ban all knifes in Toronto?

The fact that you're missing is that these murders very rarely involve legally owned handguns. Banning handguns, or making more stringent restriction on legal gun owners will do absolutely nothing to curb crime rates or murders. Criminals will still have their guns. Honest law abiding gun owners, who have to undergo criminal record checks are the ones being punished for your lack of knowledge on the subject. Nothing I have said here is false, I have all the verifiable stats and facts to back what I'm saying.

I used to live in Parkdale, is there a higher crime rate somewhere else?

How should I feel about the Gardiner? It should have been made into a tunnel years ago, but Miller wastes too much of our taxes for that to ever happen. Vote Ford!

 

[.40 cal]

I'm not trying to hide anything about myself I don't live in toronto. in fact i don't live in ontario either, though I am canadian that's all you'll get from me in that reguard.

The Problem sith this "debate" is that everyone on this forum seems to be pro-ban. it doesn't make for much of a debate now does it? I thought one of the greatest things about canada was being able to speak your mind and have a CIVIL debate on important issues... now havng said that i will state MY opinion weather you agree with it or not.



I grew up on a farm and was driving tractors and feeding the cows and horses since i could walk. It gave me a sence of responsibility. When i was 6 or 7 my dad gave me my 1st .22 rifle. I was only to use it with supervision and of course i always followed that rule. My dad tought me how to use is safely and responsible and together we would go gopher or coyote hunting and it was a great bonding experience. When I turned 12 i took the PAL course and received my 'Minor's Licence". Legally I was allowed to carry a non restricted firearm by myself with no supervision and i would often race home from school and go get my rifle and off i went looking for gophers. When I turned 14 I was legally allowed to hunt big game with a rifle to my dad bought me a .30.06 and off we went again waaay out into teh boonies where he again taught me everything i needed to know to hunt. The biggest thing he tought me was 1 shot wone kill. If i didn't feel confident that i could kill it with one shot, then don't take the shot. it's better to let an animal run away than it is to have it suffer. Within the last 5 or so years i've gotten into handgun shooting. I competed in sports such as IDPA and IPSC as well as 3-gun. I won't get into the details, becasue i'm sure i've already been condemned and i'm sure most of you have stopped reading by now.

My son born a few months ago will get introduced to guns as early as i was. I hope he developes a love for firearms like his father, but if not i will still make sure he knows basic firearm safety. all these "accidents" you talk about can be chalked up to 2 causes. 1. somone how has no idea how to handle a gun, hanfling a gun. and 2. someone who has too much experience with guns forgetting the fundamentals. It is my firm beleife that if everyone knew how to handle firearms safely the "accident" would be next to zero. Knowlege is power. It's like a cpr course... you make take it once and forget everything you learned, but the second you're in a car acident and need to save your daughter it will all come back to you. at least enough to save her life. same thing with finding a random gun (though almost impossible) you'd know to pick it up controlling the muzzle direction and check the action to see if it's clear 1st thing...



Sorry I know i tend to ramble, I hope you don't just dismiss me as a gun nut. I'm not some cazy guy, i'm passionate about legal gun ownership in canada. You have to remember that banning guns won't solve anything, they are a tool just like a hammer or a screwdriver. If someone truely means to do harm they will find a way weather it's a gun or a hammer...

 

[Tom Swift]

Umm ... I could well lose my job if I start citing the personal details of a fellow employee in public; so I will decline. I'm sure you'll use this in some kind of argument that I'm not telling the truth. I'll say this, both he and the incident happened in the USA; however I personally don't know anyone in the USA who has been killed in a home invasion, either ... or successfully stopped one with a gun.

I confess to not looking up statistics, but hundreds of deaths was a pretty low estimate in my mind. According to this, in the USA in 1996 alone, there were over 1,000. In Canada in 2002, there were 816 firearm related deaths, (2.6 deaths per 100,000); only 0.4 deaths per 100,000 were homicides so that's almost 700 accidental deaths and suicides in Canada in a single year. While accidental shooting may well be relatively few, they are more common than gun-related murders that you seem concerned about.

To make such a huge lie that there aren't hundreds of deaths caused by accidental gun use is really astounding, and I'm amazed anyone would come here and say something that is obviously so completely false. As a new member, with only 3 posts ever on this forum, all on this thread, I can assume that you have no interest in Urban Toronto, but are only here as some gun lobbyist here to troll for trouble.

I also assume that you are not from Toronto, but likely from somewhere with a much higher crime rate?

I also question your need to respond to a post that was made over a year ago. Are you trolling?

Which part of Toronto are you from? How do you feel about the Gardiner?

Are you actually that intellectually dishonest or ignorant. Canadian to USA comparisons are not accurate as Canada has Universal Gun Control laws nationwide where as in the USA it varies from nearly none at all, all the way to being inline and tougher than Canada. What you'll find is areas like NYC, California/L.A. , Chicago, and the District of Columbia have some of the highest murder rates in the USA despite having "handgun bans". Places like Vermont where any 18 year old of sober mind and no criminal background can buy a pistol and shove it into a concealed holster and proceed to walk down the street without any sort of permit legally remains a far safer society than Canada's where in Vermont generally violent crime is half, property crime is half, rape is half, sexual assault is half, of what you'd find in Canada.

If your argument for gun control is suicide I suggest you take a strong look at the rise in suicides by rope since the Firearms Act was implemented it's nearly replaced that gigantic decline in firearm related suicides. A basic sociology course would tell you that the decline is far more likely related to the aging population one which becomes less emotionally unstable as the populations average age rises. The governments job is to protect us from each other not from ourselves.

Accidental deaths by gun are stupid low in Canada like either under 20 or under 10 a year low.

I'm from the Beaches, I think the Gardiner should be buried. Light Rail Transit is a terrible idea and it has ruined Sheppard & Spadina. I'm currently a University student. Throughout my teens I've been chased down in "The Real Toronto", Sucker Punched then Mugged, and Swarmed by a gang from Regent Park among witnessing several other serious crimes. Kids have been stabbed at the bottom of my street, yes this is in the Beaches! I've been talking about general Toronto politics for years now.

As usual a bunch of people with absolutely no clue in geo politics, law, or firearms wish to dictate their use and the only honest statement made is that yes firearms can be used to kill and can be dangerous. To myths that seem to be passing for fact in this thread are astounding.

 

[nfitz]

Okay, that's 4 new posters who have suddenly arrived here today to debate a topic that 's been dead for over a year.

Where are the moderators? It's clear we are being spammed here.

 

[.40 cal]

gun control will never be dead. and you know if you didn't reply to us we'd probably just go away we like attention

 

[homers]

Lived at queen and roncy 20 yrs ... TFS 25 yrs ... etobicoke now... OK, 50 yrs in Tor , worked in 19 yrs in rexdale / albion ... got a drawer full of Tee shirts, been there done dat... Registry what does it tell the cops as per blair/ miller. IS THERE A GUN REGISTERED TO THE HOME?!?! Ok but bad info is worse that NO info. MY rifles stay in my Dad's SAFE. He is licensed and they are registered to that location. But if I use them on saturday and have them LEGALLY at my house to clean them on sunday if a police officer was to access the registry he would see NO GUNS AT MY ADDRESS!! But oh my they are LEGALLY THERE!!!!!! So if I was a cop I would assume EVERY house I went into had a threat...as frickin FF's we think that way for gods sake. So other than to make me a crimminal because I didn't have the little card with me and my rifle (and yes I would be charged as a criminal for transportation/storage violations) what good does the registry do? Oh and again why does my pellt gun have to be registered , talk about a make work project. Think about how much it costs in mailing alone $.57 per correspondance.

 

[Rational1]

Okay, that's 4 new posters who have suddenly arrived here today to debate a topic that 's been dead for over a year.

Where are the moderators? It's clear we are being spammed here.

Hang on, you finally get some logical, rational debate from informed people and you want us censored? Why, because we've proved you wrong without lying about the facts?
Sadly you're as misinformed about Ford as you are about gun control, you need to stop reading the Toronto Red Star.

 

[Tom Swift]

Okay, that's 4 new posters who have suddenly arrived here today to debate a topic that 's been dead for over a year.

Where are the moderators? It's clear we are being spammed here.

Why am I not allowed to post because I have a differing view point. Regardless of my opinion as a Toronto resident born and raised living on the same street my whole life I think I deserve a seat at the discussion table. My friend linked this to me and he knew my politics. Why not engage in legitimate discussion than asking for a mod to bring out the ban hammer when your proven lying with facts and data?

 

[homers]

Yikes someone has a thought that doesn't agree with mine ... MODERATORS HELP (ban all who don't agree with me) sorry I just had too

Okay, that's 4 new posters who have suddenly arrived here today to debate a topic that 's been dead for over a year.

Where are the moderators? It's clear we are being spammed here.