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Gun Control

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please there are many black/brown youth missing from their homes and one white guy goes missing in Barrie and it dominates the news. :rolleyes:

Tell me, what happened when that East Indian girl went missing years ago from North York (around Peanut Plaza) while going to a job interview? She was not white and received unprecedented media coverage (and rightfully so). Your comments are misguided.
 
Is there stats on the race of the victims and shooters in the homicide files? You have to prove your premise first with facts.
I'll give it my best shot. BTW, "is there stats" makes my teeth grind.

Here's an interactive map of Toronto covering each of Toronto's murders in 2008, http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/features/homicide2008/

Of the 75 listed homicides, in 32 of the cases the victims were young black males. Of the other 43 there is little in common, with a whole spectrum of ages, genders and ethnicities. I'm still digging for info on the shooters, since of course, being a victim isn't a crime. It's interesting though that while we deny that the young black male population of Toronto is in crisis, there are those from within the community trying to recognise the fact and work to solve it, see http://tdotmurders.blogspot.com/
 
It's interesting though that while we deny that the young black male population of Toronto is in crisis...

No one's denying there's a problem. People just object to your ideas that would victimise the black community even more.
 
People just object to your ideas that would victimise the black community even more.
But how is enacting stronger penalties against offenders, clearing at risk communities of their criminal elements and targetting resources at specific at risk demographics victimizing the black community even more?
 
I know for a fact that in 2006 that Edmonton, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa and Winnipeg all had higher gun homicide rates than Toronto.

In 2007 Toronto had a lower firearm homicide rate than both Vancouver and Edmonton.

All of these cities have smaller communities of the group you want to target.

These are strawman arguments. This isn't a discussion about Edmonton or any other city for that matter where the context would obviously be comletely different. You may disagree with Beez's points, but he is basing them on the situation in Toronto and not elsewhere.

I know you have some issues with this community, but it's not a racial issue.

Targeting crime prevention measures based on race is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.

I would agree that this is not a racial issue but it is a socio-cultural one that is identified with a particular group in the city. The fact that the socio-cultural group in question is of a certain race tends to muddy the waters, for those who would target race and for those who would insist that race is being targeted, neither of which are necessarily accurate.

No one's denying there's a problem. People just object to your ideas that would victimise the black community even more.

This is the challenge. It is unfair and inaccurate to target the black community as a whole. As you say, however, there is definitely a problem here, and a deadly and destructive one at that. To borrow from Obama what is needed is a scalpel and not a hatchet. This does not mean we should continue in denial. We have to be honest about the issue and find the best ways to deal with it.
 
Turn on your TV at around 6pm and there are your facts.

As a member of the news media, you're not quite right...facts play a very small role in current news.
 
These are strawman arguments. This isn't a discussion about Edmonton or any other city for that matter where the context would obviously be comletely different. You may disagree with Beez's points, but he is basing them on the situation in Toronto and not elsewhere.

I would agree that this is not a racial issue but it is a socio-cultural one that is identified with a particular group in the city. The fact that the socio-cultural group in question is of a certain race tends to muddy the waters, for those who would target race and for those who would insist that race is being targeted, neither of which are necessarily accurate.

That's exactly why I listed those cities. For AB, it is a racial problem. He blames it all on a particular group he has a problem with, while ignoring everything else. I listed those cities (ones with much lower populations of the racial group in question) in order to demonstrate it's not a racial issue.

I still have yet to see any evidence that

This is the challenge. It is unfair and inaccurate to target the black community as a whole. As you say, however, there is definitely a problem here, and a deadly and destructive one at that. To borrow from Obama what is needed is a scalpel and not a hatchet. This does not mean we should continue in denial. We have to be honest about the issue and find the best ways to deal with it.

As ganjavih stated, no one is in denial. But conducting a witch hunt against an entire community is ridiculous. We don't judge any other crime along racial or ethnic lines. It doesn't make any sense to do it here. Canadians of European background commit the majority of crime in the country...why don't we start targeting them for areas of crime in which they're prevalent?
 
But we base crime prevention measures on other identifiable groups, such as gun clubs or legal gun owners. The mayor looked at Toronto's murder stats and said we need to get rid of the guns. Besides, what's wrong with targeting crime (actually, murder) prevention at the young, male and black demographic that needs the attention? Have you been reading the news, and seeing who those are doing the shooting (and the dying) in so many of our gang shootouts? Our young, male black population in Toronto is in crisis, putting everyone at risk. You spend your money where it's best spent.

If you can't see the difference between targeting gun owners, regardless of race, and targeting people because of their race there doesn't appear to be much hope for you at this point.
As for how to best spend that money to deal with the above crisis in our young, male black demographic, I still think something is missing. As I said earlier, you can throw all the usual feel-good social programs, community supports, celebrity-sponsored basketball courts, mentor programs, public funds, scholarships and the like at the problem, but what you are not doing is putting the fear into these fellows. Perhaps the better word than fear, is hope. So, the question is then, how do you give this demographic which is so specific, it's not the girls, it's not the women, it's not the older men, hope for the future so that they'll toss the guns. Perhaps, alongside the social programs, you also need the powerfully strong justice system, so that they do not see the drug dealer on the corner making it on easy street, distracting the youngsters from the positive paths of education, perserverence and success. Instead the drug dealer and gang banger is off the street, in jail for a good long time, or deported, or exiled from the projects, leaving a more positive community for everyone else in his wake.

Why don't we just kill them? Then they won't be able to cause anymore problems! We can even do it in public as an example to all the other gang bangers to change their ways!
 
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As for how to best spend that money to deal with the above crisis in our young, male black demographic, I still think something is missing. As I said earlier, you can throw all the usual feel-good social programs, community supports, celebrity-sponsored basketball courts, mentor programs, public funds, scholarships and the like at the problem, but what you are not doing is putting the fear into these fellows. Perhaps the better word than fear, is hope. So, the question is then, how do you give this demographic which is so specific, it's not the girls, it's not the women, it's not the older men, hope for the future so that they'll toss the guns. Perhaps, alongside the social programs, you also need the powerfully strong justice system, so that they do not see the drug dealer on the corner making it on easy street, distracting the youngsters from the positive paths of education, perserverence and success. Instead the drug dealer and gang banger is off the street, in jail for a good long time, or deported, or exiled from the projects, leaving a more positive community for everyone else in his wake.
I couldn't have said it better myself...wait I did.
 
And you said just the other day


And today I'll say:

Do you know that "fact" and "bias" are two different words, that mean two different things? Or are you revealing your US education, again?
 
Why don't we just kill them?
Why not instead discuss my suggestion above of giving a sense of hope to this demographic? If we want to give them hope, we need to help the at risk communities take back their neighbourhoods. You do that by eliminating the troublemakers, no not killing anyone as you suggest (in jest and sarcastically, of course), but by arresting and jailing those caught possessing illegal guns for long periods of time.

This is not a race issue, but one of young males from the black community that are involved with guns in Toronto. Yes, they appear to be disproportionally from our black population, but they're also young and male. Should we call this an age'ist and sexist topic as well?

For the record, I have no problem with race, and count amongst my best friends those from all over the world. The best man at my wedding and best friend to this day is from China, my girls' godparents are from Jamaica and Guyana. You can't live in downtown Toronto and not have friends from all over the planet. When you're in international sales like me, you also have the opportunity to travel the world, as I have, thus meeting folks and cultures from all over. Yes, it's easy to label anyone who mentions any identifiable ethnic group as having a problem with that group, which quickly stifles debate.

We have a problem in Toronto. I still believe that unless we deal with those that are doing the shooting, we will not solve the problem of gun crime in Toronto. You can ban the legal guns, which is great, but it won't solve the issue.
 
And today I'll say:

Do you know that "fact" and "bias" are two different words, that mean two different things? Or are you revealing your US education, again?

No wonder the media is biased because people like you work in the field.
 
No wonder the media is biased because people like you work in the field.
I think everyone is biased, and as soon as they put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) their bias comes out. I've read the book Blink, and it says that we make longterm biases about people and situation within seconds of first encountering someone or something.

One of the best ways of trying to balance bias is to debate or report from a position that is opposite or against your naturally held view of things. I remember at University where in my Middle East studies course we held a debate over the Jewish West Bank settlements, and one rather ardent Jewish student gave an excellent performance on why the settlements were illegal, which was completely against his personal opinion. I'd day that chap could at least recognise bias.
 
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