GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[DonValleyRainbow]

Finally, what is the reasonsing of doing the Bowmanville extension over CP Rail lines not just using the CN lines?

I believe this was done to put the trains closer to the people. The CP line is closer to the urban centres of Oshawa and Bowmanville whereas the CN line runs along a less dense urban industrial area. Passengers would therefore in theory be able to walk, cycle and take public transit to access GO stations, and less likely to drive.

Fritter is bang-on. Both corridors were on the table when GO first started looking at the extension, but the municipalities really made it clear they wanted a CP corridor for their city centres, and pushed hard for it.

Fair. So what will happen to the current Oshawa Station renovation? Will that be VIA only?

I think this has been discussed a few times before, but I believe UT consensus is that original plan was to indeed make it VIA only, but now to make it a branch, like Hamilton is now/will be.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Fritter is bang-on. Both corridors were on the table when GO first started looking at the extension, but the municipalities really made it clear they wanted a CP corridor for their city centres, and pushed hard for it.



I think this has been discussed a few times before, but I believe UT consensus is that original plan was to indeed make it VIA only, but now to make it a branch, like Hamilton is now/will be.

Makes sense, although I'm guess the RER will be out of the VIA station and the new Oshawa Central Station.

 

[smallspy]

This assumption was an (incorrect) extension of the well-established fact that with roadways, maintenance impact increases exponentially with increased axle loads.

That assumption does hold somewhat true for railway equipment as well - just not so much with sheer axle loads, but rather in a somewhat more complex equation relying on gross tonnage vs average speed. And then for fun, you have to factor in what your target maximum line speed is as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[mdrejhon]

That's a long trip without a transfer. Kingston and London will ask for service then, and I don't see how you can't justify that at that point.

I'm merely saying in theory, at least.

But, think longer term. Look at how straight arrow that Grimsby sub is! It could easily do a 200kph, 240kph, or 300kph sprint, grade-separated, if ever called upon.

There may be a market by the 2040s for high performance ICE's like in Europe (InterCity Expresses). The only stops on the brand new Lakeshore West "GO Express" high speed 240kph ICE trains in year 2054 are StCat, Hamilton (West Harbour), Oakville, Union. The existing electric RER trains will serve as the allstop trains.

Not to mention, the converging electrification of Lakeshore West and USA Empire Corridor, likely also brings Acela Express (in half a century from now) to Toronto Union. There could be international incentive, due to pressure to compensate for climate change and other factors, that literally eventually pulls GO electrificafion and Amtrak electrification together at Niagara-Buffalo. And within your kid's lifetime.

Baby steps first. The commuter services first by the 2020s, the electrification to Niagara by 2030s, and the nursing of corridor to high speed spec by 2040s, to also have high speed ICE trains.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm merely saying in theory, at least.

But, think longer term. Look at how straight arrow that Grimsby sub is! It could easily do a 200kph, 240kph, or 300kph sprint, grade-separated, if ever called upon.

There may be a market by the 2040s for high performance ICE's like in Europe (InterCity Expresses). The only stops on the brand new Lakeshore West "GO Express" high speed 240kph ICE trains in year 2054 are StCat, Hamilton (West Harbour), Oakville, Union. The existing electric RER trains will serve as the allstop trains.

Not to mention, the converging electrification of Lakeshore West and USA Empire Corridor, likely also brings Acela Express (in half a century from now) to Toronto Union. There could be international incentive, due to pressure to compensate for climate change and other factors, that literally eventually pulls GO electrificafion and Amtrak electrification together at Niagara-Buffalo. And within your kid's lifetime.

Baby steps first. The commuter services first by the 2020s, the electrification to Niagara by 2030s, and the nursing of corridor to high speed spec by 2040s, to also have high speed ICE trains.

This does make sense on some level. I wonder what the cost is though.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Makes sense, although I'm guess the RER will be out of the VIA station and the new Oshawa Central Station.

I still think it's a mistake to make the Bowmanville extension as part of Lakeshore East. I would have preferred no crazy crossovers of the 401, and just make it an extension of the future 'Midtown line' along CP's Belleville sub. Again, no crazy crossover, potential new northern stations serving central Whitby + northern Ajax and Pickering, and passengers would be directed to midtown Toronto providing relief to Union.

But all of that is contingent on getting CP off of the Galt and North Toronto subs with a freight bypass+ use of CN Halton/York or hydro corridor, so the timelines don't match up. Plus the cost savings are mitigated by upgrading that extra stretch of the Galt to the Agincourt Yard. Missed opportunity.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I still think it's a mistake to make the Bowmanville extension as part of Lakeshore East. I would have preferred no crazy crossovers of the 401, and just make it an extension of the future 'Midtown line' along CP's Belleville sub. Again, no crazy crossover, potential new northern stations serving central Whitby + northern Ajax and Pickering, and passengers would be directed to midtown Toronto providing relief to Union.

But all of that is contingent on getting CP off of the Galt and North Toronto subs with a freight bypass+ use of CN Halton/York or hydro corridor, so the timelines don't match up. Plus the cost savings are mitigated by upgrading that extra stretch of the Galt to the Agincourt Yard. Missed opportunity.

Me too.... I thought they might as well continue on the CN line rather then pay 200 million to cooperate with CP rail. I like your idea, between than and Peterborough + Bolton and Orangeville, midtown would have seen some decent ridership. Oh well.

 

[rbt]

When RER work is complete what will the top speed be for Lakeshore West Express trains? It will be interesting to see if there is a HSR push or if faster and faster trains are run over the years as the corridor gets upgraded and tech improves.

Somewhere between 0.8 m/s/s to 1.15 m/s/s. I answered the question you should have asked (top acceleration) because stations are far too close together for top speed to actually be relevant. 95% of the trip is spent starting, stopping, or stopped.

 

[gweed123]

Should GO Transit continue only as a commuter system?
Serving places like Kitchener, Barrie and eventually Peterborough, not to mention Niagara Falls makes me wonder if GO Transit should simply become passenger rail transportation for the entire province.
Add service north of Toronto into Northern Ontario.
Add more service in Eastern Ontario.
Add more service in Southwestern Ontario

If either the province or feds pay for a bus company to serve the province, have it replaced by GO.

I am not suggesting multiple times a day. For some places, daily each way would greatly improve the lives of the citizens who live there.

The province already owns Ontario Northland. Maybe having them all under one banner is needed.

I give it 20 years and people will commute from Niagara Falls, London, Muskoka and Peterborough.

This is something I've been promoting now for a couple years. Basically, "GO" itself would have 3 different operating services: GO RER, GO Regional (current bi-level service within the contiguous GTHA), and GO+. GO+ would serve a much more extended market, with destinations like London, Kingston, Niagara Falls, Barrie, Peterborough, etc. And yes, it could also be extended to other parts of the Province. I see it using coach setups that are half-way between a GO train and a Via train, in order to be more comfortable for those long distance trips. The biggest differentiator between GO+ and Via would be the lack of in-car service on trips, reducing costs.

This would leave Via to focus exclusively on the trips connecting major urban centres, with most of the intermediate stops receiving GO+ service instead.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Should GO Transit continue only as a commuter system?
Serving places like Kitchener, Barrie and eventually Peterborough, not to mention Niagara Falls makes me wonder if GO Transit should simply become passenger rail transportation for the entire province.
Add service north of Toronto into Northern Ontario.
Add more service in Eastern Ontario.
Add more service in Southwestern Ontario

If either the province or feds pay for a bus company to serve the province, have it replaced by GO.

I am not suggesting multiple times a day. For some places, daily each way would greatly improve the lives of the citizens who live there.

The province already owns Ontario Northland. Maybe having them all under one banner is needed.

I give it 20 years and people will commute from Niagara Falls, London, Muskoka and Peterborough.

I've been working on a national plan to this effect, but yeesh, I don't know that I'll ever get to finishing it.

 

[Northern Light]

This is something I've been promoting now for a couple years. Basically, "GO" itself would have 3 different operating services: GO RER, GO Regional (current bi-level service within the contiguous GTHA), and GO+. GO+ would serve a much more extended market, with destinations like London, Kingston, Niagara Falls, Barrie, Peterborough, etc. And yes, it could also be extended to other parts of the Province. I see it using coach setups that are half-way between a GO train and a Via train, in order to be more comfortable for those long distance trips. The biggest differentiator between GO+ and Via would be the lack of in-car service on trips, reducing costs.

This would leave Via to focus exclusively on the trips connecting major urban centres, with most of the intermediate stops receiving GO+ service instead.

As opposed to GO plus, I always thought the secondary units should be 'GO North'; 'GO East', and 'GO West' ...........while Toronto-centric service could be GO T.O.

Always just appealed to me as a marketing thing.

Start by absorbing Ontario Northland; and it becoming GO North

 

[rbt]

Don't some trains run express as I stated?

Those trains you're already familiar with; the recently purchased diesel engines aren't going anywhere for another 25 years.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is something I've been promoting now for a couple years. Basically, "GO" itself would have 3 different operating services: GO RER, GO Regional (current bi-level service within the contiguous GTHA), and GO+. GO+ would serve a much more extended market, with destinations like London, Kingston, Niagara Falls, Barrie, Peterborough, etc. And yes, it could also be extended to other parts of the Province. I see it using coach setups that are half-way between a GO train and a Via train, in order to be more comfortable for those long distance trips. The biggest differentiator between GO+ and Via would be the lack of in-car service on trips, reducing costs.

This would leave Via to focus exclusively on the trips connecting major urban centres, with most of the intermediate stops receiving GO+ service instead.

I'd like to see Ottawa get the moose rail set up first.

 

[Fritter]

Start by absorbing Ontario Northland; and it becoming GO North

There were rumors among GO staff of GO and Ontario Northland merging about 10-12 years ago. May had some truth, may have just been complete fiction, I don't know

 

[smallspy]

When RER work is complete what will the top speed be for Lakeshore West Express trains? It will be interesting to see if there is a HSR push or if faster and faster trains are run over the years as the corridor gets upgraded and tech improves.

The top speed will likely be the same as it is today....anywhere from 60mph to 90mph, depending on curvature and alignment.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.