GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[reaperexpress]

Can Niagara even support one train per hour? I know the plan is a forced transfer at Hamilton - James street.

I don't know. I certainly hope it will be able to support it a some point in the future, but I don't know how long it will take to change Hamilton and Niagara Regions' travel behaviours sufficiently.

To be realistic I probably should have included the split service in that breakdown, given that GO's fear of delays at the Welland Canal would not yet be resolved by grade-separation at that point. So it probably should have been:
2 trains per hour Hamilton - Toronto (or Unionville?) making limited stops, and
2 trains per hour Hamilton - Oshawa making all stops,
(and intermittent connections at Hamilton toward Niagara Falls).

It's worth noting that Toronto-Niagara is currently the busiest intercity bus corridor in the country, with 17 privately operated buses per direction between Toronto to Niagara (bypassing Hamilton) as well as 18 GO buses from Burlington to Niagara (also bypassing Hamilton). Combining all these passengers with the passengers travelling to Hamilton from Grimsby, St Catharines and Niagara Falls might be enough to warrant hourly train service. But without direct Toronto-Niagara service, there's no chance of capturing a big portion of the existing bus market, so it's a bit of a Catch-22.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't know. I certainly hope it will be able to support it a some point in the future, but I don't know how long it will take to change Hamilton and Niagara Regions' travel behaviours sufficiently.

To be realistic I probably should have included the split service in that breakdown, given that GO's fear of delays at the Welland Canal would not yet be resolved by grade-separation at that point. So it probably should have been:
2 trains per hour Hamilton - Toronto (or Unionville?) making limited stops, and
2 trains per hour Hamilton - Oshawa making all stops,
(and intermittent connections at Hamilton toward Niagara Falls).

It's worth noting that Toronto-Niagara is currently the busiest intercity bus corridor in the country, with 17 privately operated buses per direction between Toronto to Niagara (bypassing Hamilton) as well as 18 GO buses from Burlington to Niagara (also bypassing Hamilton). Combining all these passengers with the passengers travelling to Hamilton from Grimsby, St Catharines and Niagara Falls might be enough to warrant hourly train service. But without direct Toronto-Niagara service, there's no chance of capturing a big portion of the existing bus market, so it's a bit of a Catch-22.

I like this plan. I always though there would be a better way to get from Grimsby to Niagara Falls without crossing the canal. It's going to be so expensive to upgrade it.

 

[Fritter]

Finally, what is the reasonsing of doing the Bowmanville extension over CP Rail lines not just using the CN lines?

I believe this was done to put the trains closer to the people. The CP line is closer to the urban centres of Oshawa and Bowmanville whereas the CN line runs along a less dense urban industrial area. Passengers would therefore in theory be able to walk, cycle and take public transit to access GO stations, and less likely to drive.

 

[smallspy]

The only marginal track cost per train is the maintenance incurred by operating more trains, which is minimal with such tiny lightweight trains.

Uhhh.......

When dealing with passenger trains, the maintenance costs are based more on the standard of track you wish to keep than the tonnage that rolls over them. And even with freight trains, that's largely true as well, as only the numbers for some items (frogs and diamonds, primarily) skew upwards with tonnage.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[reaperexpress]

Uhhh.......

When dealing with passenger trains, the maintenance costs are based more on the standard of track you wish to keep than the tonnage that rolls over them. And even with freight trains, that's largely true as well, as only the numbers for some items (frogs and diamonds, primarily) skew upwards with tonnage.

Isn't that consistent with what I said? I said that running UP Express trains (or any trains apparently) has no significant effect on maintenance cost on Metrolinx lines, whereas services on CN or CP lines would have a marginal cost in the form of track fees.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I believe this was done to put the trains closer to the people. The CP line is closer to the urban centres of Oshawa and Bowmanville whereas the CN line runs along a less dense urban industrial area. Passengers would therefore in theory be able to walk, cycle and take public transit to access GO stations, and less likely to drive.

Fair. So what will happen to the current Oshawa Station renovation? Will that be VIA only?

 

[smallspy]

Isn't that consistent with what I said? I said that running UP Express trains (or any trains apparently) has no significant effect on maintenance cost on Metrolinx lines, whereas services on CN or CP lines would have a marginal cost in the form of track fees.

The implication in your post - at least as I interpreted it - is that there is virtually no incremental cost to more UPX trains, whereas there was for the full-sized GO trains. Calling them "tiny lightweight trains" certainly seems to try to minimize their presence when the reality is that they have the exact same effect on the track and structures as a regular GO train.

The truth is that it doesn't matter which is running on the tracks. So long as freight makes up an inconsequential fraction of the traffic on the line, it doesn't matter what you're running on it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[reaperexpress]

The implication in your post - at least as I interpreted it - is that there is virtually no incremental cost to more UPX trains, whereas there was for the full-sized GO trains. Calling them "tiny lightweight trains" certainly seems to try to minimize their presence when the reality is that they have the exact same effect on the track and structures as a regular GO train.

The truth is that it doesn't matter which is running on the tracks. So long as freight makes up an inconsequential fraction of the traffic on the line, it doesn't matter what you're running on it.

Ah, I see the disconnect. Yeah, I was indeed implying that a 3-car DMU train has a lesser impact on rail wear and tear compared to a 12-car bilevel locomotive-hauled GO train (though my main point was that marginal maintenance cost was lower than track fees). This assumption was an (incorrect) extension of the well-established fact that with roadways, maintenance impact increases exponentially with increased axle loads.

 

[mdrejhon]

Can Niagara even support one train per hour? I know the plan is a forced transfer at Hamilton - James street.

StCat probably could be able to, by 2021-2023. In theory, at least.

The quoted kilometerage of planned track apparently appears to mathematically exactly match needed paralleling trackage on the Grimsby sub, from West Harbour to Lewis Yard (by 2019) and to StCat (by 2021-2023).

The Hamilton rail junction expansion (3rd track over Desjardins Canal) and trackwork through 2017 apparently handles the prerequisites near West Harbour.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

StCat probably could be able to, by 2021-2023. In theory, at least.

The quoted kilometerage of planned track apparently appears to mathematically exactly match needed paralleling trackage on the Grimsby sub, from West Harbour to Lewis Yard (by 2019) and to StCat (by 2021-2023).

The Hamilton rail junction expansion (3rd track over Desjardins Canal) and trackwork through 2017 apparently handles the prerequisites near West Harbour.

That's a long trip without a transfer. Kingston and London will ask for service then, and I don't see how you can't justify that at that point.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's a long trip without a transfer. Kingston and London will ask for service then, and I don't see how you can't justify that at that point.

So be it. If Kingston wants GO service, we can give it to them at minimal cost by simply rebranding the VIA Rail commuter runs that already exist.

Current VIA schedule as of June 2016 - commuter runs highlighted in green:
Westbound:

Eastbound:

Note that some stations are only served by these commuter runs - these would become "GO" stations.

And London-Kitchener-Toronto GO service wouldn't be so bad either, these cities have a lot of demand between them. London to Toronto is an unreasonably long commute on a GO train, but London to Kitchener isn't, nor is Stratford to Kitchener or Stratford to London.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So be it. If Kingston wants GO service, we can give it to them at minimal cost by simply rebranding the VIA Rail commuter runs that already exist.

Current VIA schedule as of June 2016 - commuter runs highlighted in green:
Westbound:
View attachment 94790

Eastbound:
View attachment 94789

Note that some stations are only served by these commuter runs - these would become "GO" stations.

And London-Kitchener-Toronto GO service wouldn't be so bad either, these cities have a lot of demand between them. London to Toronto is an unreasonably long commute on a GO train, but London to Kitchener isn't, nor is Stratford to Kitchener or Stratford to London.

that's awesome, how do you do this? Do you have an hourly service mockup for London and Peterborough as well?

 

[reaperexpress]

that's awesome, how do you do this? Do you have an hourly service mockup for London and Peterborough as well?

I just took the all the existing VIA Corridor schedules and put them into a single spreadsheet so I could more easily generate statistics. The only change I made is to highlight certain runs in green to identify them as commuter services. The westbound commuter trip is VIA #651 and the eastbound trips are #650 and #48.

I do happen to have a number of fantasy schedules which include various levels of service to London (with various levels of track improvements obviously), but it's getting late now so I'm going to bed rather than finding them. And I'll be away from UT for a while so don't expect them soon. I'll post one or more of them in the Fantasy Maps thread if I remember.

 

[micheal_can]

Should GO Transit continue only as a commuter system?
Serving places like Kitchener, Barrie and eventually Peterborough, not to mention Niagara Falls makes me wonder if GO Transit should simply become passenger rail transportation for the entire province.
Add service north of Toronto into Northern Ontario.
Add more service in Eastern Ontario.
Add more service in Southwestern Ontario

If either the province or feds pay for a bus company to serve the province, have it replaced by GO.

I am not suggesting multiple times a day. For some places, daily each way would greatly improve the lives of the citizens who live there.

The province already owns Ontario Northland. Maybe having them all under one banner is needed.

I give it 20 years and people will commute from Niagara Falls, London, Muskoka and Peterborough.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I just took the all the existing VIA Corridor schedules and put them into a single spreadsheet so I could more easily generate statistics. The only change I made is to highlight certain runs in green to identify them as commuter services. The westbound commuter trip is VIA #651 and the eastbound trips are #650 and #48.

I do happen to have a number of fantasy schedules which include various levels of service to London (with various levels of track improvements obviously), but it's getting late now so I'm going to bed rather than finding them. And I'll be away from UT for a while so don't expect them soon. I'll post one or more of them in the Fantasy Maps thread if I remember.

Thanks. I should do some of my own then

Should GO Transit continue only as a commuter system?
Serving places like Kitchener, Barrie and eventually Peterborough, not to mention Niagara Falls makes me wonder if GO Transit should simply become passenger rail transportation for the entire province.
Add service north of Toronto into Northern Ontario.
Add more service in Eastern Ontario.
Add more service in Southwestern Ontario

If either the province or feds pay for a bus company to serve the province, have it replaced by GO.

I am not suggesting multiple times a day. For some places, daily each way would greatly improve the lives of the citizens who live there.

The province already owns Ontario Northland. Maybe having them all under one banner is needed.

I give it 20 years and people will commute from Niagara Falls, London, Muskoka and Peterborough.

I wonder too...