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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Personally, I can see Metrolinx instituting a region-wide fare zone system. Whether or not they would consider the entire City of Toronto as one fare zone is up for debate, but I think that's the model they'll ultimately be working towards. Or at least I hope they will be.
flyinggoats
New Member
I expect that we will see fare integration coming soon(ish). At its December 2014 board meeting, Metrolinx will present some "Early Actions" (i.e. Quick Wins) on fare integration [1,2]. They plan to develop a full regional fare-integration plan in 2015 [2] for implementation in 2016 [3].
References
[1] http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commiss.../November_18/Reports/Integration_of_TTC_a.pdf
[2] http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...dMtg_GTHA_Fare_and_Service_Integration_EN.pdf
[3] http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd..._Year_Strategic_Plan_2013-2018_EN.pdf#page=16
Thanks for those links! Reading through the fare integration part, this one jumped out at me too, and I have to say, I really like it:
"3d. Continue research, modeling and planning work to lay the foundation to potentially unbundle the cost of parking at GO Transit parking facilities from fares." (emphasis their's)
This, plus a boost in local transit, plus fare integration with said local transit, could really have an impact on how people get to the GO station. I'd be all for getting a buck or so off my fare if I wasn't parking at the GO station.
DonValleyRainbow
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That is fantastic. And just straight-up good environmental economics. I hope Metrolinx has adequate stats at the end of it to show the world what happens when you price things properly.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
If Torontonians ever decided they should actually pay for transit improvements maybe operation shortfalls wouldn't be such an issue. Queen's Park this and Ottawa that in terms of funding but the idea of Toronto actually having a pure transit tax seems to be heresy. Toronto bitched at McGuinty forever to get revenue tools so the province finally brought in The City of Toronto Act but hasn't done anything with those new found taxing powers.
Toronto's subway system is embarrassingly small but conversely it's commuter rail system is quite large and extensive even compared to many of it's contemporaries. Despite this Toronto's transit usage is high while GO Rail ridership is quite low especially considering it has 440 km of rail on 7 different lines. GO Rail is the future of rapid transit in Greater Toronto but they won't take it until the service is better {which it is becoming} and the fares drop significantly. The latter part is the real issue for most especially in the city itself where GO is astronomically priced. Fare integration will help but still be too expensive an option for most transit dependent people. This could quickly remedied by a transit tax but that would require political will and public support which are both sadly lacking.
Toronto's subway system is embarrassingly small but conversely it's commuter rail system is quite large and extensive even compared to many of it's contemporaries. Despite this Toronto's transit usage is high while GO Rail ridership is quite low especially considering it has 440 km of rail on 7 different lines. GO Rail is the future of rapid transit in Greater Toronto but they won't take it until the service is better {which it is becoming} and the fares drop significantly. The latter part is the real issue for most especially in the city itself where GO is astronomically priced. Fare integration will help but still be too expensive an option for most transit dependent people. This could quickly remedied by a transit tax but that would require political will and public support which are both sadly lacking.
johntauren
Active Member
Part of the problem is that municipalities only get like 8% of the taxes, where as the province gets 42% and federal gets 50%
Really, Toronto just wants its fair share, to pay for day to day interactions.
And a transit tax is a bad idea for the simple reason of the GTA existing.
I have no numbers for this, but I'm sure there are a good deal of TTC riders that don't live in Toronto.
They wouldn't be paying that tax.
Conversely, if they do pay find a way for them to pay that tax, someone in the 905 isn't going to want fund Toronto transit expansion.
Even if we got some sort of regional transit integration across all transit providers, many will not like having to pay for expansion elsewhere.
GO Transit doesn't work in Toronto for a simple reason: Distance-based fares
You can travel across Toronto on the TTC on a single cash fare $3, whereas, for example, Exhibition to Union is $5.20
You can travel across the rest of the GTA on a single fare as well.
Further more, all GO Transit travel essentially goes to Union. Which is useless if you want anywhere else.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
This will be fantastic. As a GO user from the far, far-away lands of suburbia, it's ridiculous to see how crammed the parking lots (and garages!) are. Knock an amount off of the fare, and a lot of people will switch to local transit on the way to the station instead.
This of course will be most effective where there are co-fares. Hopefully Metrolinx's resolve to implement them with TTC upon Presto installation doesn't waver.
rbt
Senior Member
They don't necessarily need to modify the way TTC sets fares either.
GO has fare integration with many (all?) suburban transit systems at this time. No, it's not what we think of when we look at RER but it would probably be sufficient to have a TTC component be say $1 or $1.25 extra on a GO trip; combined price for a 416 trip in the $6 range.
Even at $6 I still think both GO and TTC will be very overloaded and rapidly looking for billions more in capital dollars. Whatever is done, I'm not a fan of the province putting hundreds of millions per year into fare subsidies until we actually get a little ahead of ridership in capacity; unless it's new revenue and does not impact our capital borrowing capacity.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I really think that depends on a) how they unbundle and b) how good local transit is.
If a ride that is, say, currently a $6 ride becomes $4 for GO and $2 for parking (as an example) then I doubt many would switch their commuting habits. Even a 75c co-fare on local transit ends up being $1.50 a day so I don't see a lot of people switching to local transit.
If, however, that formerly $6 bundled fare becomes $5 for GO and $3 for parking (plucking number out of the air) you may see some people switching.....as they proclaim they would never vote for their MPP again for sneaking in a 33% increase in the cost of GO.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is the parking being de-coupled, but only charged for parking from 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday. That way in effect you have less expensive off-peak GO fares, even if you're parking on weekends, when there isn't really much demand for parking space.
As for the perception, I think if you told people "we're lowering GO fares, but we're now charging the equivalent amount for weekday parking", at worst it's a cost neutral switch, at best they're saving themselves a few bucks. This is of course assuming that the end of the day total of GO + parking is equal to the cost of the fare pre-split. If it ends up being more, then you may have a problem.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I think we are agreeing......but if the goal with the perceived reduction in GO fares is to get more people to use transit to the station rather than drive the de-coupling would need to shift a significant portion of the current coupled fare to parking.....and that could lead to some very interestingly low fares once the de-coupling has taken place.
I also think that unless the de-coupled cost of parking+GO is higher than the current coupled fare...most drivers would keep driving and you may end up just getting less revenue from people who already use other methods of getting to the station.....without any discernible change in the commuting patterns.
There already is a bit of a hint as to what parking is worth.....a reserved spot is $70....so there are, what, 22 working days on average a month so a reserved, guaranteed, spot is worth $3.50.
What is an unreserved, non guaranteed spot worth then.....$2? $2.50? would that be enough to shift people who prefer to drive to a $1.50 a day co-fare? I would think not.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
You are complaining about the province and feds taking a disproportionate amount of the taxes and giving little back. While that is quite true, what makes you think it's any different in the rest of the country?
Vancouverites now pay 11 cents/litre on gas for taxes directed solely for Translink, why doesn't Metrolinx do the same?
Despite the superiority Canadians feel about their transit system over U.S. ones, it is the American cities that are taking the lead in transit funding. All across the country US cities have VOTED in favour of transit taxes like gas or sales tax but Torontonians aren't willing to put their money where their industrial size mouths are.
Before you blame it all on Ford, the reality is that Toronto could have introduced this by now if your Councillors had any backbone. Also, Toronto could have been tolling the DVP and/or Gardiner for decades now and have a subway system that would rival the best in the world but no.
The sad reality is that fares are going no where but up and service will be limited until Torontonians manage to get their heads around the revolutionary idea that you get what you pay for. The only hope is if fare integration does come into effect in 2015 {heavy on the word "if"} then there could be a significant fall in revenue in some of the local systems like the TTC. Toronto and the TTC will balk at the idea of losing fare revenue unless it is made up somewhere else and that means transit taxes.
The reality is that all GTA mayor/councillors are too gutless and self centred to be straightforward with the citizens about the need for massive new revenue to fund the expanding system. Instead they have the lowest common denominator route and are waiting for Queen's Park to levy the taxes so it can take the political heat.
Vancouverites now pay 11 cents/litre on gas for taxes directed solely for Translink, why doesn't Metrolinx do the same?
Despite the superiority Canadians feel about their transit system over U.S. ones, it is the American cities that are taking the lead in transit funding. All across the country US cities have VOTED in favour of transit taxes like gas or sales tax but Torontonians aren't willing to put their money where their industrial size mouths are.
Before you blame it all on Ford, the reality is that Toronto could have introduced this by now if your Councillors had any backbone. Also, Toronto could have been tolling the DVP and/or Gardiner for decades now and have a subway system that would rival the best in the world but no.
The sad reality is that fares are going no where but up and service will be limited until Torontonians manage to get their heads around the revolutionary idea that you get what you pay for. The only hope is if fare integration does come into effect in 2015 {heavy on the word "if"} then there could be a significant fall in revenue in some of the local systems like the TTC. Toronto and the TTC will balk at the idea of losing fare revenue unless it is made up somewhere else and that means transit taxes.
The reality is that all GTA mayor/councillors are too gutless and self centred to be straightforward with the citizens about the need for massive new revenue to fund the expanding system. Instead they have the lowest common denominator route and are waiting for Queen's Park to levy the taxes so it can take the political heat.
Good points. Maybe one of the ways to do it is to shift parking to an hourly rate instead of a daily rate. That way, the parking cost isn't as directly tied to the price of the GO ticket, as it's dependent on how long you stay, although there would presumably be a daily max. You could also have different rates for different times of the day.
Whether or not it would actually change commuting patterns is an interesting point though. Did the TTC see a change in travel patterns when they started charging for parking a few years ago? It would be logical to assume that any shift would be amplified for GO compared to the TTC, since GO sees a significantly greater percentage of its riders trips start and end with a private vehicle than the TTC does. But if the TTC saw no real change, then it would be logical to assume that the difference for GO would be negligible as well.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Sure....but the vast majority of people parking (and I don't see this changing much) are parking all day so the daily max would have to reflect that so is not likely to be much more (if at all) than any sort of flat fee you can come up with. Another factor would be traffic flow in and out of the lot. If you charge hourly, you have to have a system that measures when someone came in and when they left...so you have to stop cars in and out to somehow recognize them....if it is a flat fee, you just have to do that going in.