GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

In London you don't need to tap out for bus trips - you only need to for train/tube/DLR trips. However, many cities do require a tap on and off on buses, such as Singapore and Hong Kong. I've never seen any issue there.

I really don't get why people keep bringing up this red herring. Yes, I'm sure it will be a bit of a learning curve for some people, and the number of fare gates at certain locations will likely need to be adjusted, but it's not like it's an insurmountable challenge.

Can't speak for other people but I brought it up because tapping off will remove one of the true great features of our system...its simplicity of fare structure. Whenever I have visitors from overseas they always compliment the fact that "you pay when you get on...you don't have to calculate a fare (its the same all the time) and when you arrive you just get off"......so I am trying to understand how our system would look/work if we sacrificed that feature and what we would gain from sacrificing it.

 

[robmausser]

Sorry for derailing the thread (that joke never gets old) but does anyone know of where I can find the history of commuter rail "pre - go transit"?

My understanding is that there were CN and CP (then VIA) commuter trains from guelph, hamilton, barrie etc, but little details on these trains.

My understanding were that they were typical passenger trains which happened to have schedules that allowed people to use them to get to work, they weren't really branded as commuter trains like GO.

I'm just curious and would love more details on the train names, type of equipment used, schedules, stations stops, maps of their routes etc.

There seems to be little information that is all in one place, it seems to be sparse and all over the Internet disorganized.

Thanks!

 

[nfitz]

I can't wait to see what Yonge and Bloor looks like with Presto adopted and a tapping off regime in place!

TTC has indicated there's no plans to do this. And really, I can't see it happening. It would be a huge challenge to implement - simply because the ticket barriers aren't plentiful enough. Tap ins don't require as much equipment, because the arrivals at the subway station are relatively steady at most stations. Tap outs have to deal with large numbers of people arriving simultaneously. So while each station currently often only has 1 Metropass reader, and several exit-only or token entrances - suddenly you need to put readers at every exit - and in some places increase the number of ticket barriers that may require some significant construction.

There's certainly no need to implement this unless you go to fare by distance. And I really don't see that happening given that it would be even more difficult to implement on surface routes, which certainly make up the majority of the service in the more remote parts of the city.

If there's a desire to credit YRT or GO riders who simply use the subway to go from 407 station to York University station then all you have to do is stick optional tap-on points somewhere before the fare barriers where those leaving the station can tap to receive their credit each time they ride.

Or perhaps simply add some kind of endorsement or pass to the card of members of the York Region community that doesn't charge when tapping on at 407 and Vaughan Centre stations.

 

[TOareaFan]

TTC has indicated there's no plans to do this. And really, I can't see it happening. It would be a huge challenge to implement - simply because the ticket barriers aren't plentiful enough. Tap ins don't require as much equipment, because the arrivals at the subway station are relatively steady at most stations. Tap outs have to deal with large numbers of people arriving simultaneously. So while each station currently often only has 1 Metropass reader, and several exit-only or token entrances - suddenly you need to put readers at every exit - and in some places increase the number of ticket barriers that may require some significant construction.

There's certainly no need to implement this unless you go to fare by distance. And I really don't see that happening given that it would be even more difficult to implement on surface routes, which certainly make up the majority of the service in the more remote parts of the city.

If there's a desire to credit YRT or GO riders who simply use the subway to go from 407 station to York University station then all you have to do is stick optional tap-on points somewhere before the fare barriers where those leaving the station can tap to receive their credit each time they ride.

Or perhaps simply add some kind of endorsement or pass to the card of members of the York Region community that doesn't charge when tapping on at 407 and Vaughan Centre stations.

Don't think the last one works....it would lead to a lot of free rides into downtown by York Region folks (and perhaps Brampton folks too)

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

You guys are losing me on this whole need to tap-off (in context of a co-fare).

If I transfer from the GO train, I tap off at the Downsview Park GO platform (unless it is a default trip), and then I tap back in at the TTC turnstyle. Presto computer recognizes I am making a transfer between systems, only charges me the co-fare. I take the subway to York U (or anywhere on the TTC) and don't need to tap off.

In reverse: I tap on at York U turnstyles, get charged the regular fare. I get to Downsview Park, walk out of the TTC fare zone, tap on to the GO platform. The Presto recognizes a transfer, charges me the base GO fare (the fare to get from Downview Park to the next GO station) minus the difference between TTC regular and co-fare.

For example, let's assume Downsview Park was the same fare zone as the York U GO Station is now, the TTC co-fare was the same as it is on MiWay ($0.75), the TTC regular fare for Presto is the same ($2.65) and I travel bewteen York U and King City.

Inbound trip:
* Tap onto GO platform: +$4.82 (King City to Maple)
* Tap off at Downview Park: $5.49 - $4.82 = +$0.67
* Tap into TTC; no tap-off required: +$0.75
* Total fare: $4.82 + $0.67 + $0.75 = +$6.24

Outbound trip:
* Tap on at York U TTC; no tap-off required: +$2.65
* Tap on at Downsview Park GO: $4.77 - ($2.65 - $0.75) = $4.77 - $1.90 = +$2.87 (Downsview to Rutherford GO - TTC regular fare + TTC co-fare)
* Tap off at King City GO: $5.49 - $4.77 = +$0.72
* Total fare: $2.65 + $2.87 + $0.72 = +$6.24

So I don't see where this need to tap-off the TTC is coming from. This is the same way I understand it to work when I transfer between MiWay and GO. Am I missing something?

 

[apayette89]

You guys are losing me on this whole need to tap-off (in context of a co-fare).

If I transfer from the GO train, I tap off at the Downsview Park GO platform (unless it is a default trip), and then I tap back in at the TTC turnstyle. Presto computer recognizes I am making a transfer between systems, only charges me the co-fare. I take the subway to York U (or anywhere on the TTC) and don't need to tap off.

In reverse: I tap on at York U turnstyles, get charged the regular fare. I get to Downsview Park, walk out of the TTC fare zone, tap on to the GO platform. The Presto recognizes a transfer, charges me the base GO fare (the fare to get from Downview Park to the next GO station) minus the difference between TTC regular and co-fare.

For example, let's assume Downsview Park was the same fare zone as the York U GO Station is now, the TTC co-fare was the same as it is on MiWay ($0.75), the TTC regular fare for Presto is the same ($2.65) and I travel bewteen York U and King City.

Inbound trip:
* Tap onto GO platform: +$4.82 (King City to Maple)
* Tap off at Downview Park: $5.49 - $4.82 = +$0.67
* Tap into TTC; no tap-off required: +$0.75
* Total fare: $4.82 + $0.67 + $0.75 = +$6.24

Outbound trip:
* Tap on at York U TTC; no tap-off required: +$2.65
* Tap on at Downsview Park GO: $4.77 - ($2.65 - $0.75) = $4.77 - $1.90 = +$2.87 (Downsview to Rutherford GO - TTC regular fare + TTC co-fare)
* Tap off at King City GO: $5.49 - $4.77 = +$0.72
* Total fare: $2.65 + $2.87 + $0.72 = +$6.24

So I don't see where this need to tap-off the TTC is coming from. This is the same way I understand it to work when I transfer between MiWay and GO. Am I missing something?

There is no co-fare between GO and TTC, so you would be paying the regular TTC fare in your transfer. If a co-fare agreement could be made, then yes, it would fix this issue. Although I'm sure some people will still complain about having to pay 75 cents more.

 

[gweed123]

Given that the TTC currently operates as Pay As You Enter, it would make most sense to tap on/off when entering and leaving the system, in comparison to Proof Of Purchase (such as GO) where you'd tap on and off of each vehicle.

Distance-based Presto wouldn't make much difference to the congestion at Bloor/Yonge, since the bulk of people are changing trains, not entering/leaving the system.

And if the fare system only had 2 zones, it would be possible to charge 2 zones to everyone by default, and refund 1 zone to people who only use that many. That way long-distance travellers (which make up a huge proportion of passengers at rush hour, from my impression) wouldn't need to tap out.

Yup. It's a lot easier to "overcharge" at the start of a trip, and then have people tap off if they want a refund, as opposed to asking for them to tap twice and pay twice.

 

[nfitz]

Don't think the last one works....it would lead to a lot of free rides into downtown by York Region folks (and perhaps Brampton folks too)

How? If they were students at York, and boarding at Vaughan Centre, then they are likely going to York. They'll be a few, sure. But enough to worry about?

Perhaps, is if York students want free TTC travel from Vaughan Centre to York University, then they vote for UPass. If they vote against it, charge them $2.70 for going from 407 station to Steeles West station.

If I transfer from the GO train, I tap off at the Downsview Park GO platform (unless it is a default trip), and then I tap back in at the TTC turnstyle. Presto computer recognizes I am making a transfer between systems, only charges me the co-fare. I take the subway to York U (or anywhere on the TTC) and don't need to tap off.

There are no co-fares on TTC. Who would pay for it?

So I don't see where this need to tap-off the TTC is coming from. This is the same way I understand it to work when I transfer between MiWay and GO. Am I missing something?

There are no co-fares on TTC. If you did this for those travelling to York U from Downsview station, you'd have to do for those doing similar things. Who would pay for it?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

There is no co-fare between GO and TTC...

There are no co-fares on TTC. Who would pay for it?

There are no co-fares on TTC. If you did this for those travelling to York U from Downsview station, you'd have to do for those doing similar things. Who would pay for it?

I know there are no co-fares guys. I said if there was. This was totally hypothetical and trying to get at why one would have to tap off. I still don't get it.

And who would pay for it? I don't think anyone 'pays' for it, it's an incentive to attract ridership. Does anyone know how the other GTHA transit agencies negotiated their co-fares? Did the province give them some money maybe?

 

[nfitz]

I don't think anyone 'pays' for it, it's an incentive to attract ridership.

The more ridership TTC attracts, the more subsidy it needs. There's isn't excess capacity available at peak hours. Increased ridership means more buses, trains, garages, etc. Someone then has to pay for this.

Does anyone know how the other GTHA transit agencies negotiated their co-fares? Did the province give them some money maybe?

The province directly funds each transit agency about $2 or so a ride. If they did this for those using TTC to get to Union and the other stations, it would cost a fair bit of money to the province.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The more ridership TTC attracts, the more subsidy it needs. There's isn't excess capacity available at peak hours. Increased ridership means more buses, trains, garages, etc. Someone then has to pay for this.

This is the only rational argument I am aware of for dragging feet on implementing co-fare. It's true the TTC needs more capacity. But I believe that is what The Big Move and the Investment Strategy are for: additional rapid transit capacity system wide, and sustainable operational funding. With the recent wild swings on what exactly will be implemented by the province, who knows if sustainable operational funding is still in the cards though.

 

[rbt]

... who knows if sustainable operational funding is still in the cards though.

I'm pretty certain any regular municipal transfer to local agencies disappeared when Metrolinx lost their new tax revenues.

Gobs of money for capital, but they still seem to need to fund operations mostly from the farebox.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The province usually just gives metrolinx its required subsidy that they ask for. usually only something like $15 million a year more, not too much for a government with a $120 billion budget.

Metrolinx is pretty adament about implementing fare integration with the TTC once PRESTO is installed as well.

 

[TOareaFan]

The province usually just gives metrolinx its required subsidy that they ask for. usually only something like $15 million a year more, not too much for a government with a $120 billion budget.

+/- 10% of which budget they don't have and have to borrow.

 

[rbt]

The province usually just gives metrolinx its required subsidy that they ask for. usually only something like $15 million a year more, not too much for a government with a $120 billion budget.

I can assure you if Metrolinx started asking for $400M/year to carry a million extra passengers per day some feathers at Queen's Park would be ruffled.

Metrolinx is pretty adament about implementing fare integration with the TTC once PRESTO is installed as well.

Yep, but fare integration doesn't necessarily mean a flat $2.75 fare.