GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ShonTron]

Yes! ONTC really should integrate with GO's Barrie service. It's an oddity that GO, ONTC and Greyhound (formerly PMCL) all operate buses between Toronto and Barrie at sometimes very different pricepoints.

When I traveled from Sudbury to Toronto, I preferred the local Northland bus over the "express" Greyhound run, even though =stops in places like Coldwater slowed the ON bus down. Northlander buses were cleaner, usually much less crowded, and made a better pit stop in Parry Sound. (Greyhound stopped at McDonald's for a non-revenue stop, while ON stopped at Harvey's for a 15 minute layover, with Tim Horton's adjacent.)

 

[smoothtofu]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I really dislike how the GO service guarantee is implemented. My train was delayed for nearly an hour last week and I successfully filed a claim in which I got a hefty refund of $0.40. Pretty insulting if you ask me. Why do they give refunds based on the discounted presto fare? What's stopping them from pushing all their delays to the end of the month to take advantage of this system?

 

[innsertnamehere]

they could give you the full fare back if they wanted, but then the next trip you would just have to pay your full fare again instead of $0.40. You need to have paid full ticket price for 35 trips to qualify for the 90% off or whatever it is, and if they refund you a full trip you would just need to pay another full trip to qualify for the 90% off again.

The entire point of the program is to refund what the client paid to make the trip that was delayed. You paid $0.40 for it, so it only makes sense for them to refund $0.40. Its like demanding that a store refund you the full price for a good even though you bought it when it was 50% off.

 

[smoothtofu]

they could give you the full fare back if they wanted, but then the next trip you would just have to pay your full fare again instead of $0.40. You need to have paid full ticket price for 35 trips to qualify for the 90% off or whatever it is, and if they refund you a full trip you would just need to pay another full trip to qualify for the 90% off again.

The entire point of the program is to refund what the client paid to make the trip that was delayed. You paid $0.40 for it, so it only makes sense for them to refund $0.40. Its like demanding that a store refund you the full price for a good even though you bought it when it was 50% off.

I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just think that the system is flawed. Like I said, does this not give them incentive to push any delays to the end of the month? Are they not allowed to be late as much as they please once people aren't paying full fare anymore? If I were them, I'd much rather refund $0.40 or $0.00 then $7.

 

[DavidH]

I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just think that the system is flawed. Like I said, does this not give them incentive to push any delays to the end of the month? Are they not allowed to be late as much as they please once people aren't paying full fare anymore? If I were them, I'd much rather refund $0.40 or $0.00 then $7.

As a GO bus rider who gets NO compensation for delays whatsoever, I have absolutely no sympathy for your complaint.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The refund is most useless for people who make GO bus connections at the end of the trip.. They are charged a full fare for their GO bus trip and only discounted the difference for the fare zone increase for the train trip. so $6 for the 15 minute bus connection, and $2 off because your train trip was delayed by an hour or whatever.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

I'm not saying it's incorrect, I just think that the system is flawed. Like I said, does this not give them incentive to push any delays to the end of the month? Are they not allowed to be late as much as they please once people aren't paying full fare anymore? If I were them, I'd much rather refund $0.40 or $0.00 then $7.

I'm sure it's part of the confidential part of Metrolinx Board meetings where they say plan all the unplanned delays to the last three days of the month so that we only have to refund discounted fares to the portion of riders who actually make it up to the 35+ threshold. Now you know why part of the Metrolinx meetings is always in camera.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm sure it's part of the confidential part of Metrolinx Board meetings where they say plan all the unplanned delays to the last three days of the month so that we only have to refund discounted fares to the portion of riders who actually make it up to the 35+ threshold. Now you know why part of the Metrolinx meetings is always in camera.

I figured them out ages ago though and keep an extra Presto Card that I only use from the 27th of every month onwards......I get full refunds!

 

[bartekci]

There was mention of a new express bus to Waterloo in the last service update, but I can't find any time tables on it. Can someone help point me to it?

 

[mpd618]

There was mention of a new express bus to Waterloo in the last service update, but I can't find any time tables on it. Can someone help point me to it?

It's the 25F that runs on Fridays and Sundays between UW, Laurier, and York via the 407. It's in the schedule for Route 25 Waterloo / Mississauga though it doesn't go to Mississauga.

 

[johntauren]

An automatic ticket machine for GO has been installed at Bramalea City Centre Terminal.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Updated GO track ownership post Guelph sub transaction.
Previous ver. http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...ad-(including-extensions)?p=632175#post632175


Lakeshore West line
To Hamilton Center;
-total length(revenue service); 40.3 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.2, Oakville 36.1, Hamilton 3.0
-ownership; 32.2 GO(80%), 5.1 CN, 3.0 CP (no further increase in ownership possible)
-purchases;
2000 - USRC limits mile 0.0 to 1.2
2010 March 31 - Oakville sub mile 1.2 to 8.4 = 7.2 miles for $72 million
2012 March 27 - Oakville sub mile 8.4 to 23.6 = 15.1 miles(+14.2 miles of the Bala sub), 29.3 miles for $310.5 million
2013 March 22 - Oakviile sub mile 23.6 to 32.2 = 8.6 miles for $52.5 million

To James St;
-total length(revenue service); 40.5 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.2, Oakville 39.3
-ownership; 32.2 GO(80%), 8.3 CN

Niagara(seasonal only)
-total length(revenue service); 82.4 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.2, Oakville 38.1, Grimsby 43.1
-ownership; 32.2 GO(39%), 50.2 CN
Speculation - Grimsby sub is a lower priority line for CN it may be available for purchase at some point in the future.

Lakeshore East line(figures do not include trackage to Pickering south, 1.0 miles owned by CN)
-total length(revenue service); 31.5 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.4, Kingston 18.4, GO 11.7
-ownership; 31.5 GO(100%)
-purchases;
2000 - USRC limits mile 332.4 to 333.8(center of Union) = 1.4 miles
2011 March 30 - Kingston sub mile 314.0 to 332.4 = 18.4 miles for $299 million

Milton line
-total length(revenue service); 31.3 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.5, Galt 30.0
-ownership; 4.85 GO(16%), 26.45 CP (no further increase in ownership possible)
-purchases;
2000 - USRC limits mile 0.0 to 1.45 = 1.45 miles
unknown date - Galt sub mile 1.45 to 4.8 = 3.35 miles

Kitchener line
-total length(revenue service); 62.7 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.6, Weston 15.4, Halton 13.0, Guelph 32.7
-ownership; 49.7 GO(79%), 13.0 CN (no further increase in ownership possible)
-purchases;
2000 - USRC mile 0.0 to 1.6 = 1.6 miles
2009 April 8 - Weston sub mile 1.6 to 17.0 = 15.4 miles for $160 million
2014 Sept 24 - Guelph sub mile 30 to mile 62.7 = 32.7 miles for $76 million

Barrie line
-total length(revenue service); 63.0 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.6, Weston 1.4, Newmarket 60.0
-ownership; 63.0 GO(100%)
-purchases;
1998 Dec 1 - (City of Barrie purchase) Newmarket sub mile 41.5 to 63.0 = 21.5 miles
unknown date - (ownership transfer to GO & additional track purchases) Newmarket sub mile 15.5 to 63.0 = 47.5 miles
2009 Dec 15 - Newmarket sub mile 3.0 to 15.5 = 12.5 miles for 68$ million

Richmond Hill line
-total length(revenue service to Gormley); 26.0 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.9, Bala 24.1
-ownership; 16.1 GO(62%), 9.9 CN(no further increase in ownership possible)
-purchases;
2012 March 27 - Bala mile 1.9 to 16.1 = 14.2 miles(+15.2 miles of the Oakville sub), 29.3 miles for $310.5 million

Stouffville line
-total length(revenue service); 30.7 miles
-subdivisions; USRC 1.4, Kingston 6.8, Uxbridge 22.3, 105(yard) track 0.2
-ownership; 30.7 GO(100%)
-purchases;
unknown date - Uxbridge mile 38.7 to 61.0 = 22.3 miles (GO also owes but does not operate on track past mile 38.7, current user; York-Durhan heritage railway)


Total System length(figures do not include duplicate miles for different lines);
year round revenue service - 288.0 miles
with seasonal Niagara service - 331.1 miles

Total cost of corridor purchases; $1,038 million for 116.9 miles

Ownership as of 1998;
213.4 miles = 11.7 GO(5.4%), 167.4 CN(78.4%), 34.3 CP(16.1%)

Ownership of revenue service mileage after extensions to Gormley & James St.
288.0 miles = 228.05 GO(79.2%), 30.5 CN(10.6%), 29.45 CP(10.2%)
including Niagara;
331.1 miles = 228.05 GO(68.9%), 73.6 CN(22.2%), 29.45 CP(8.9%)

Breakdown of line extensions since Dec 2007; 114.4 miles
-to Barrie Dec 2007 21.3 miles(GO)
-to Lincolnville Jan 2008; 2.1 miles(GO)
-to Niagara Jun 2009; 45.1 miles(CN)
-to Kitchener Dec 2011; 32.7 miles(GO) 0.6 (CN)
-to Allandale Jan 2012; 3.5 miles(GO)
-to Gormley work in progress; 5.0 miles(CN)
-to James St. work in progress; 4.7 miles(CN)

Addition corridor purchase, currently unused;
2010 CP Belleville sub (Don Branch) mile 209.4 to 206.4 = 3.0 miles
2014 CP Canpa sub mile 0.0 to 2.6 = 2.6 miles (rumored but unverified)

 

[TOareaFan]

^after collecting the $1B in purchase price from ML/Ontario....any idea how much CN and/or CP pay to continue running trains in the corridors?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

^after collecting the $1B in purchase price from ML/Ontario....any idea how much CN and/or CP pay to continue running trains in the corridors?

That I can't say. I know we've had this argument before so I may be just rehashing things but,
Buying up trackage isn't something they would have done if there wasn't some kind of benefit involved. They're not just giving the freight companies a free hand out. What ever it was they were paying CN/CN for wheelage(as its called) would of became an absurd figure with RER-type service on all lines. No doubt CN/CP would of driven up the price, if GO waited till they were closer to achieving RER before making all these purchases.

And lets not get ahead of ourselves, although(and thankfully) the province is moving forward with RER planning nothing is a given. Plans can change quickly because of recessions, disasters or even which ever way the political winds happen to blowing. CN much prefers a known amount of cash up front verses a speculative revenue stream far into the future that they have no guarantee on when or even if it will happen, even if that future revenue stream may be far greater. This is a company that has ripped up mainline tracks only to have to rebuild them in the future all just to save a little money on maintenance for the time being. It's a company that gave up the GO contract, even though they we're making money on it and would of continued to make money on it far into the future, just because they suddenly wanted to switch those crews to freight because it became much more profitable to use them for that purpose at that time. But hey if a recession happens, or if the nature of the industry changes - like maybe we finally get some damn pipelines into ground instead of shipping all that volatile crude by rail, suddenly its not as profitable to run freight and meanwhile they could of had a steady income from passenger service ad infinitum, or at least until we're all whizzing around inside vacuum tubes or teleporting ourselves all over the place. Point being, they're short term thinkers. Its all about the here and now and "just how low(aren't we impressive) can we get our operating ratio next year"?

Another huge benefit is having control over trains operating on the line. While CN & CP still have running rights, GO is now better able to dictate when they run. Unfortunately its still not perfect since the fright companies still do the dispatching and from time to time they still pull some asshat train moves. But that will be eliminated once GO takes over dispatching on the lines they own as is planned in the future. That's what makes it worth while.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ I don't think I have had this argument before

I only started thinking/wondering about the merits of the track purchases in the last couple of weeks (when that last $76 million was spent on the KW line) and my question today is really just to advance my thoughts on it. So, as you say, on tracks that GO does not own it pays "wheelage"....once the tracks are purchased by GO does this relationship change? Do the freight companies now pay wheelage to the GO/Metrolinx?