GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[doady]

Exactly right. While they've never said their behaviour is to block trains altogether (because that would get them ignored), their behaviour makes it very clear that they will never be satisfied. Give them electric trains and they will complain about noise, or ticket prices, or the lack of magnetic levitation, or something.

The legacy of Jane Jacobs lives on.

 

[ShonTron]

Blaming Westonites for Georgetown not having Lakeshore-level service is dishonest and ridiculous. If GO came out in 2000 and said we're double-tracking the CN line through Weston to provide hourly GO service, there would be some construction mess as the tracks are doubled and the station rebuilt, there would only be fringe opposition due to noise and pollution, most of the residents would likely have been thrilled or ambivalent. (There's plenty of grade crossings with similar traffic levels on LSW through Mississauga, such as Stavebank or Ogden; the grade separation or closure of King, John and Church would not necessarily be required.)

The reasons why Georgetown/Kitchener doesn't have hourly train service are numerous, but have very little to do with Weston. Money, single-track corridor that was until recently controlled by CN, constraints further up on the Halton Sub through Brampton, and the fact that GO never made it a priority. Blame GO and the province if you must place blame.

Back on topic, CBC Hamilton has posted the hours for the 30 minute Lakeshore Service, but since GO itself hasn't posted a public schedule, take it with salt:

Lakeshore line GO service every half-hour starting June 29:
9:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m., and from 7:30 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. on weekdays (Greater frequency during peak times)
11:30 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. on Saturdays
11:30 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. on Sundays

 

[nfitz]

Blaming Westonites for Georgetown not having Lakeshore-level service is dishonest and ridiculous.

I don't think anyone blamed them. I simply said why should Metrolinx prioritize it, given the huge negative reaction it will get, compared to absolutely no negative reaction from residents along the Lakeshore Line.

Back on topic, CBC Hamilton has posted the hours for the 30 minute Lakeshore Service, but since GO itself hasn't posted a public schedule, take it with salt:

Ah, interesting. About what I expected. Glad to see Saturday evening service. I'd been hoping that there'd be an 11:43 pm departure on weekdays from Union, for purely personal reasons (can't make the 11:13 pm after playing soccer, and I end up driving because I don't want to wait until 12:13 am). But I didn't think I'd be getting it. I'd still like to see an extra train or two hourly out of Union later in the evening ... at least on Fridays/Saturdays.

 

[innsertnamehere]

the actual times might be getting shuffled up for this as well, your 11:13 train may suddenly become 11:25 or something. the entire schedule could be moved around here.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't think anyone blamed them. I simply said why should Metrolinx prioritize it, given the huge negative reaction it will get, compared to absolutely no negative reaction from residents along the Lakeshore Line.

Ah, interesting. About what I expected. Glad to see Saturday evening service. I'd been hoping that there'd be an 11:43 pm departure on weekdays from Union, for purely personal reasons (can't make the 11:13 pm after playing soccer, and I end up driving because I don't want to wait until 12:13 am). But I didn't think I'd be getting it. I'd still like to see an extra train or two hourly out of Union later in the evening ... at least on Fridays/Saturdays.

Clearly it is not enough!

Way back in time we used have a thing called "dial a bus" in Brampton.....I think GO needs to look into the application of this in their rail network. Maybe they could experiment with giving everyone with a Presto Card that lives within, what, 5km of a Lakeshore GO station their own GO train and they can just make up their own schedules?

 

[gweed123]

the actual times might be getting shuffled up for this as well, your 11:13 train may suddenly become 11:25 or something. the entire schedule could be moved around here.

As long as there's a Lakeshore West train that gets me into Union around 12:30 on Saturdays and Sundays for Jays games, I'll be happy .

I also hope that they keep a predictable schedule for most off-peak trains like they do now. For example, I know that most LSW trains leave Union on the 43s. Even if it switches to something like the 17s and the 47s, that's fine. I'd just much rather have a predictable pattern that have to consult the schedule every time, or memorize every train trip.

 

[nfitz]

the actual times might be getting shuffled up for this as well, your 11:13 train may suddenly become 11:25 or something. the entire schedule could be moved around here.

Possibly, and if they were ever to do that, now's the time.

Though given the current departure times date back to the September 1967 schedule, as far as I know, and knowing the inertia in the railroads, and how it has to work with the VIA schedule. My guess is that they'll still do all the departures on the 13's from Union ... on the other hand, this will make the Lakeshore East/West departure times identical ... and if they go for something slightly different, it may cut down on the number of people getting on the wrong train!

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I am aware of the line constraints. There were also line constraints on the Lakeshore line....in 2009 (i think that is when they started building the 3rd track) they prioritized 30 minute service on this line over beefing up any of those other lines (save and except KW which is a long project) getting hourly all day service. There really is no other way to look at it than that. Faced with a bunch of capital projects they picked the one that would get them to the point where we are today.

Well, all they had to do to remove those constraints was add 8 mile of new track on the LW and 7 miles on the LE for a total of 15 over two lines. Outside of KW & Milton, for the money they spent you would not get nearly the same return in revenue for the same expenditure. Richmond Hill needs about 14 miles of new track alone to double track it, Stouffville 22 and the Barrie line about 60! Those new tracks would be necessary to increase the service to levels approaching LW & LE. But even then the Stouf & RH lines would still suffer from slower speeds because of the unchangeable track geometry, and that of course would make them less desirable to use as an alternative to other transportation options. As for the other two lines that allow for higher speeds and have high populations catchments;
As you noted, the KW line work was a long term project started around that time. Milton meanwhile is constrained by CP and nobody knows(publicly that is as CP is not going to allow for the negotiations to become public until everything is finalized) at this point exactly what they want and how much its going to cost in order to increase the service, but undoubtedly it will cost far more than the recent Lakeshore upgrades were. So realistically I don't see how the choice they made at that time was the wrong one. Faced with a bunch of capital projects they picked the ones that would bring in the most revenue in the shortest amount of time with the budget they had.

I hope I am wrong, but I expect that the new 30 minute service will have a very minimal impact on total ridership, will actually reduce the average ridership per off peak train and it will end up just moving slightly more people in total....albeit more conveniently for those that are blessed with this service.

I believe your underestimating how much more appealing this will make the service. Personally I know a lot of people who are more inclined to drive instead of using the train because they have to plan their schedule around the trains schedule. A hour is a ridiculously long time to wait if you missed your train but 30 minutes is bearable and the average wait time goes from 30 mins to 15 for those not following a schedule. I know they'll be far more inclined to use the service now.

Ah, the crew shortage....strange how this is not an issue for the 30 minute service being introduced.....a cynic (and I try not to be one...but it is hard) might suggest that this is why the 30 minute service is introduced at this time.....get those crews working on Lakeshore now before we have to tell the rest of the lines that crews are short because of UPE

Actually I have to correct myself as some new information has recently come to light which some new should please everyone. They now have a schedule in place to train an addition 60 engineers before the start of the UPE service in 2015. They seem to finally be on the verge of aggressively training the work force, around 30 people training at the same time, thanks to all the recent and continuing hiring of CSA's and by having large numbers of CSA's training to be conductors. This means that it looks like there won't be a shortage of engineers for new service even after the UPE comes online. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they use that extra manpower as that would make for 20+ additional crews than necessary to run Lakeshore 1/2 service levels plus the UPE. So in the least as long as they follow the plan they have in place, crew shortages wont be a viable excuse at that time.

 

[nfitz]

I am aware of the line constraints. There were also line constraints on the Lakeshore line....in 2009 (i think that is when they started building the 3rd track)

2009? They started a long time before that. I think they may have started on of the last pieces around 2009 - wasn't there some delay to the final piece? This news release from August 2008 reports the completion of the third track segment from Danforth Station to Scarborough station - http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/283...to-improved-service-along-lakeshore-east-line

It says that construction started in 2005. If I recall correctly, the project was announced in 2003.

 

[TOareaFan]

I believe your underestimating how much more appealing this will make the service. Personally I know a lot of people who are more inclined to drive instead of using the train because they have to plan their schedule around the trains schedule. A hour is a ridiculously long time to wait if you missed your train but 30 minutes is bearable and the average wait time goes from 30 mins to 15 for those not following a schedule. I know they'll be far more inclined to use the service now.

I have no doubt there are some people like that. I don't think I am underestimating it...I think I am applying some reasonibility tests to it.

To meet their projections of a 50% increase in ridership on the line (7.5 milliion new riders) "immediately" that would mean there would have to be a huge amount of them. If we assume it is really just 3.75 million return trips ...it means there are 10,302 return, off peak trips each day the year that are being turned away because of the hourly schedule. Does that seem reasonable?

The extra 7.5 million riders means that the 263 new trains are going to, on average, bring 548.41 (off peak) passengers to the system? At the presser they stated the current average is 350 per train (off peak) so there are enough transit friendly (because the car crowd will still exist) shunning GO that the new service will attract an average of 156% above the current?

This doubling off off peak to achieve that projection of 7.5 million new riders would bring the weighted average off peak ridership from 350 to 450?

I am not sure how many off peak trains there are today (and don't care to count) but the new 263 trains are called a doubling of off peak...so if they are averaging 350...that means there are 92,050 off peak riders per week now....or 4,786,000 off peak riders per year out of the 26,668,400 riders (2010) on the line....so, roughly, 22 million riders use this line during peak times (ie. people going to and from work...GO's core constituency on all its lines)....yet we are told that "immediately" this increase in off peak is going to attract 7.5 million new off peak riders? So new off peak riders will be a little over 1/3 of peak ridership? Combined with existing off peak riders the off peak ridership will climb to 56% of the peak ridership? Does that seem reasonable?

What seems reasonable to me is that this will bump ridership a bit....but not by anything close to 7.5million people per year "immediately" (and not for some time) and i stand by my "guess" that the average number of people per train will decline in the short and mid term. If the 526 (est) off peak trains per week get, now, an average of 250 people per train that means there will be 6,838,000 off peak riders. That will be a stunning (IMO) 43% increase in off peak ridership.....a boost to the overall ridership of about 8%.....now that seems reasonable to me.

What it means, though, is to the extent that the $7.7 million of increased operating cost is somehow tied to the estimate of a 50% boost in the ridership on the line....that $7.7 million is questionable....no?

 

[ShonTron]

I'm wondering what the point of the additional track through Brampton, the second platforms at Brampton and Malton if the number of trains through are almost the same (there are two more revenue movements through Downtown Brampton since the work at Brampton Station was done). I imagine that there is quite a bit more capacity now with three tracks (apart from through Brampton, though the single track section is gone) - if scheduled properly, ensuring that there's always a track free through Brampton Station for CN, I could see hourly service working, especially with the terminus of off-peak trains at Mount Pleasant. Of course a third track through Downtown Brampton is ideal, but that means closing some parking spots, moving the 106-year old station building back, widening the Main, Union, Queen, Centre Street and Etobicoke Creek bridges and widening the embankment though downtown, which I imagine would be necessary for 30 minute off peak service.

 

[TOareaFan]

2009? They started a long time before that. I think they may have started on of the last pieces around 2009 - wasn't there some delay to the final piece? This news release from August 2008 reports the completion of the third track segment from Danforth Station to Scarborough station - http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/283...to-improved-service-along-lakeshore-east-line

It says that construction started in 2005. If I recall correctly, the project was announced in 2003.

2009, I think, is when they started the project to lay the 2 sections of third track on Lakeshore West......at that time they would also have been (I think) hearing from people wanting expansion of service on the other lines. What I meant by that comment (and I apologize if it was not clear) was that in 2009 they chose to build those stretches of 3rd track in the face of demands from other lines....rather than directing that money towards increase the capacity of other lines...they directed it at triple tracking lakeshore (and additional money for parking facilities) to priortize half hour service on Lakeshore rather than hourly service anywhere else.....choice they made.

 

[gweed123]

Actually I have to correct myself as some new information has recently come to light which some new should please everyone. They now have a schedule in place to train an addition 60 engineers before the start of the UPE service in 2015. They seem to finally be on the verge of aggressively training the work force, around 30 people training at the same time, thanks to all the recent and continuing hiring of CSA's and by having large numbers of CSA's training to be conductors. This means that it looks like there won't be a shortage of engineers for new service even after the UPE comes online. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they use that extra manpower as that would make for 20+ additional crews than necessary to run Lakeshore 1/2 service levels plus the UPE. So in the least as long as they follow the plan they have in place, crew shortages wont be a viable excuse at that time.

Good news! After the UPE comes online, how many of those 60 engineers will still be 'un-allotted' in 2015? Just trying to see if there's any possibility that other service improvements can come online, assuming there are enough engineers left over after UPE. I'm thinking the math is something like this 60 engineers - X for UPE = 60-X for other lines. If X is small enough, it may be enough to run hourly service on the Kitchener line (at least to Mount Joy) or something like that.

 

[nfitz]

To meet their projections of a 50% increase in ridership on the line (7.5 milliion new riders) "immediately" ...

Where are these projections? I haven't actually seen this number other than in your posts. Perhaps I missed something.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm wondering what the point of the additional track through Brampton, the second platforms at Brampton and Malton if the number of trains through are almost the same (there are two more revenue movements through Downtown Brampton since the work at Brampton Station was done). I imagine that there is quite a bit more capacity now with three tracks (apart from through Brampton, though the single track section is gone) - if scheduled properly, ensuring that there's always a track free through Brampton Station for CN, I could see hourly service working, especially with the terminus of off-peak trains at Mount Pleasant. Of course a third track through Downtown Brampton is ideal, but that means closing some parking spots, moving the 106-year old station building back, widening the Main, Union, Queen, Centre Street and Etobicoke Creek bridges and widening the embankment though downtown, which I imagine would be necessary for 30 minute off peak service.

I have not heard one commuter on a train or platform ask for "more than that"....the question I hear is "why can't we have what the Lakeshore lines have".....hourly service is all I think people aspire to.