GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[TOareaFan]

All day service to Kitchener ... that would surprise me. I'd be happy just to see a single train to Kitchener in AM peak (and back in PM peak).

I don't think anyone (well, maybe the 100 riders a day who currently use the trains from there) are suggesting all day service to Kitchener. I think those that want all day service on the line use the descriptive term KW line and some confuse that as saying all day service to KW. I think beyond GTown the corridor shrinks to one track...so no one suggests that it would be even possible to provide all day service to KW even if there was demand?

 

[DavidH]

"service will be added" is not all day service.

The article seems to me to be stating that all day service will come to intermediate stations sooner. The article is NOT talking about the 2015 plans; 2015 is not mentioned anywhere in there. What will actually happen is of course not constrained by anything written in a newspaper article, and ultimately we'll see what happens.

 

[TOareaFan]

The article seems to me to be stating that all day service will come to intermediate stations sooner. The article is NOT talking about the 2015 plans; 2015 is not mentioned anywhere in there. What will actually happen is of course not constrained by anything written in a newspaper article, and ultimately we'll see what happens.

I don't know "how service will be added" is automatically "service will be added to all day levels"....clearly we are seeing something different in the same words.......and probably looking at them from different perspectives experiences.

No it did not say 2015....but that is the one level of "service will be added" that they have committed to. So, when beyond 2015 is a reasonable timeframe for all day service similar to, say, the pre-June lakeshore levels? Why is 30 minute frequency on that line such a priority over current Lakeshore levels on any other line?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is not the first time crew shortage has insinuated its way into the Brampton discussion.....just wondering....how many extra crews are now needed on Lakeshore for the 263 extra train trips per week.

We may not be able to predict how many staff they need in 5- 10 years but we can, surely, figure out how many we have now, and how many extra are being allocated to Lakeshore as of June and ask the question that if there are "X" number of additional crews around, why is it so much more imperative to offer 30 minute service on one/two lines with those crew and not any off peak service on the other lines (and, before it is pointed out, I know that the "now" discussion does not include KW but there are other vastly underserved lines that could use more trains).

Longer hours and more deadhead trains

"service will be added" is not all day service.

we already know what the added service in 2015 is on KW line and it is (broken record time here) 5 more return trips, weekdays only, than what existed prior to the construction and expenditure of $1.2B

It does not mean it's not either.

 

[TOareaFan]

Longer hours and more deadhead trains

I am not as intuitively up on train operation as you might be...sorry. Can you explain that means in reference to my question? How many additional crews are needed for the 263 train trips being added to Lakeshore?

It does not mean it's not either.

Well, I agree there and that is why I suggested that DavidH and I were seeing something different in the same language. I will say, though, that any politician (and I have to assume it was a call from either GO or Minister Murray's office that got the Star to update their page) would have said it more directly if that is what they meant.

 

[drum118]

This is not the first time crew shortage has insinuated its way into the Brampton discussion.....just wondering....how many extra crews are now needed on Lakeshore for the 263 extra train trips per week.

We may not be able to predict how many staff they need in 5- 10 years but we can, surely, figure out how many we have now, and how many extra are being allocated to Lakeshore as of June and ask the question that if there are "X" number of additional crews around, why is it so much more imperative to offer 30 minute service on one/two lines with those crew and not any off peak service on the other lines (and, before it is pointed out, I know that the "now" discussion does not include KW but there are other vastly underserved lines that could use more trains).

You have 5 train sets being added. 7 days a week x 20 hours Divide by 35 hour per engineer (crew)/week without overtime and you get what? That for one set and multiply it by 5. You then need 15% spare ratio to cover crews not showing up for work for various as well being on holidays. That will give you the number of crews needed for this service.

Unless Metrolinx order more locomotives, current fleet is used max at peak time without using up all the spare ratio ones. You can take the out of service off peak sets to add off peak and that will depend on the line without having an impact on peak service for the system.

With the plan to electrify some of the lines, new EMU/locomotives for those lines will phase out the MP40PH-3C on them. Those extra MP40PH-3C can be used to beef up service on the lines where electrify the line is a decade or 2 off in the distance. Also on the long haul section that will not be electrify.

 

[nfitz]

So, when beyond 2015 is a reasonable timeframe for all day service similar to, say, the pre-June lakeshore levels?

Who will be the Premier beyond 2015? If Wynne, I'd bet we'd see something close to hourly service on Georgetown in 2015 or within a year or two. Based on recent past practice, a Conservative government would give very little, and the NDP severely cut GO service last time they came to power.

Why is 30 minute frequency on that line such a priority over current Lakeshore levels on any other line?

Because the promise to do this, is much, much older? Because construction to enable this started back in 2003, and was finished in 2010, unlike Kitchener (not finished), Milton (need to sort out with CP, and spend $billions), Stouffville & Richmond Hill (I believe the second track is still in planning stages) ... and even Barrie is constrained by the construction between Strachan and Weston for some time to come (I'm not sure how far the second track goes). With nearly a decade head-start in putting in the infrastructure for the Lakeshore service increase - and 10 years of detailed promises (and another 30 of broken promises), why would it surprise anyone that Lakeshore goes first.

This is still good news for everyone though. It shows that there is a commitment to actually do this kind of stuff from the new government! They should start making some detailed promises about service increases for the next 3-4 years, instead of this vague hand-waving stuff, and then magically announcing huge service increases that weren't even in the current GO 1-year plan.

 

[TOareaFan]

Who will be the Premier beyond 2015? If Wynne, I'd bet we'd see something close to hourly service on Georgetown in 2015 or within a year or two. Based on recent past practice, a Conservative government would give very little, and the NDP severely cut GO service last time they came to power.

My MPP apparantly (according to her anyway) has Ms Wynne's ear and was a key member of her leadership team. She has had a lot of chances in communication with me to say/hint/suggest that hourly service is coming. Thus far she has not. I would think in this climate a politician would be more than happy to say that if it were true/intended. I hope your right....I think your wrong

Because the promise to do this, is much, much older?

As discussed, I don't think it is as much older as you think it is. I do find it confusing, though, that you regularly remind me that what someone says today is not necissarily what they will give tomorrow....but that part of the justification for this 30 minute service is that it was promised 40 years ago. Why are some promises allowed to be adjusted/amended/forgotten but some are not?

Because construction to enable this started back in 2003, and was finished in 2010, unlike Kitchener (not finished)

Be fair, I have always stated/noted that I know we are not talking about "right now" for the KW line.....but GO/Metrolinx are not talking about after the construction is completed either.

, Milton (need to sort out with CP, and spend $billions), Stouffville & Richmond Hill (I believe the second track is still in planning stages) ... and even Barrie is constrained by the construction between Strachan and Weston for some time to come (I'm not sure how far the second track goes). With nearly a decade head-start in putting in the infrastructure for the Lakeshore service increase - and 10 years of detailed promises (and another 30 of broken promises), why would it surprise anyone that Lakeshore goes first.

It is not that Lakeshore is "going first" ....they went first years ago....the other lines are only dreaming of what Lakeshore already has. They have had a decades long head start on more than just construction and planning.....they have had a decades long headstart on service levels too. This them getting first ride on the big new roller coaster then getting off the ride and jumping the line for another ride!

This is still good news for everyone though. It shows that there is a commitment to actually do this kind of stuff from the new government! They should start making some detailed promises about service increases for the next 3-4 years, instead of this vague hand-waving stuff, and then magically announcing huge service increases that weren't even in the current GO 1-year plan.

I have a hard time seeing this as good news

 

[nfitz]

I would think in this climate a politician would be more than happy to say that if it were true/intended. I hope your right....I think your wrong

Given the budget constraints that have been rumoured, I can't see how they can make any long term commitments, without increasing the debt level to unhealthy levels. They've either got to wait for some surprise budget relief (financial recovery), or find new funding sources. If the new funding sources go through, I fully expect to see some service enhancements.

It is not that Lakeshore is "going first" ....they went first years ago....the other lines are only dreaming of what Lakeshore already has. They have had a decades long head start on more than just construction and planning.....they have had a decades long headstart on service levels too. This them getting first ride on the big new roller coaster then getting off the ride and jumping the line for another ride!

It's got a lot to do with the tracks being double-tracked from day 1, unlike the other lines. And also population distributions. Good grief, Lakeshore West had better service levels in the late 1800s than Richmond Hill has now! What's the population within 1-km of the Lakeshore line compared to the other lines. I'd think only Milton even comes close.

 

[TOareaFan]

Given the budget constraints that have been rumoured, I can't see how they can make any long term commitments, without increasing the debt level to unhealthy levels. They've either got to wait for some surprise budget relief (financial recovery), or find new funding sources. If the new funding sources go through, I fully expect to see some service enhancements.

It's got a lot to do with the tracks being double-tracked from day 1, unlike the other lines. And also population distributions. Good grief, Lakeshore West had better service levels in the late 1800s than Richmond Hill has now! What's the population density withing 1-km of the Lakeshore line compared to the other lines. I'd think only Milton even comes close.

I think the big move report showed the (then) Georgetown corridor having the highest desnity of any transit corrider in the study area with the exception of the B-D subway.

 

[TOareaFan]

You have 5 train sets being added. 7 days a week x 20 hours Divide by 35 hour per engineer (crew)/week without overtime and you get what? That for one set and multiply it by 5. You then need 15% spare ratio to cover crews not showing up for work for various as well being on holidays. That will give you the number of crews needed for this service.

Unless Metrolinx order more locomotives, current fleet is used max at peak time without using up all the spare ratio ones. You can take the out of service off peak sets to add off peak and that will depend on the line without having an impact on peak service for the system.

Is it a quiz? .....is that 23 crews?

With the plan to electrify some of the lines, new EMU/locomotives for those lines will phase out the MP40PH-3C on them. Those extra MP40PH-3C can be used to beef up service on the lines where electrify the line is a decade or 2 off in the distance. Also on the long haul section that will not be electrify.

The salt in the KW wound would be an announcement that with the new 30 minute service on Lakeshore, they can no longer afford to lend the KW line the trainset that currently runs from Bramalea at 9:40 a.m. and that this train is cancelled.....not that this run has a particularly high utility in the context of the current schedule but it would just be a nice reminder of where the lines stand in importance

 

[gweed123]

This is not the first time crew shortage has insinuated its way into the Brampton discussion.....just wondering....how many extra crews are now needed on Lakeshore for the 263 extra train trips per week.

We may not be able to predict how many staff they need in 5- 10 years but we can, surely, figure out how many we have now, and how many extra are being allocated to Lakeshore as of June and ask the question that if there are "X" number of additional crews around, why is it so much more imperative to offer 30 minute service on one/two lines with those crew and not any off peak service on the other lines (and, before it is pointed out, I know that the "now" discussion does not include KW but there are other vastly underserved lines that could use more trains).

It may be a return on investment calculation. If GO can get more riders using those crews for 30 min Lakeshore trains vs adding trains to Brampton or Meadowvale, then isn't that the best use of limited resources?

I haven't seen the numbers to indicate that 30 Min Lakeshore is indeed a better ROI, but I haven't seen anything to show that a Brampton or Meadowvale service would see ridership levels per train around what Lakeshore sees. If anyone has a more detailed analysis, I'd like to see it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am not as intuitively up on train operation as you might be...sorry. Can you explain that means in reference to my question? How many additional crews are needed for the 263 train trips being added to Lakeshore?

The same crewa doing more hours/ running more trains. Remember this was supposed to be next year. They are stretching the resources they do have.

Well, I agree there and that is why I suggested that DavidH and I were seeing something different in the same language. I will say, though, that any politician (and I have to assume it was a call from either GO or Minister Murray's office that got the Star to update their page) would have said it more directly if that is what they meant.

I think more they what you, nfitz and shrontron suggest is coming down. I think they will provide more they what they are saying and I don't believe the mayor of brampton.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Who will be the Premier beyond 2015? If Wynne, I'd bet we'd see something close to hourly service on Georgetown in 2015 or within a year or two. Based on recent past practice, a Conservative government would give very little, and the NDP severely cut GO service last time they came to power.

Because the promise to do this, is much, much older? Because construction to enable this started back in 2003, and was finished in 2010, unlike Kitchener (not finished), Milton (need to sort out with CP, and spend $billions), Stouffville & Richmond Hill (I believe the second track is still in planning stages) ... and even Barrie is constrained by the construction between Strachan and Weston for some time to come (I'm not sure how far the second track goes). With nearly a decade head-start in putting in the infrastructure for the Lakeshore service increase - and 10 years of detailed promises (and another 30 of broken promises), why would it surprise anyone that Lakeshore goes first.

This is still good news for everyone though. It shows that there is a commitment to actually do this kind of stuff from the new government! They should start making some detailed promises about service increases for the next 3-4 years, instead of this vague hand-waving stuff, and then magically announcing huge service increases that weren't even in the current GO 1-year plan.

It's not about promises is bias. More people use that entire line so they would get more trains. More revenue trains on the busiest line = more $$$. I'm young but is more then 30 min really necessary on Lakeshore? 15 seems like overkill. And the Brampton every get promised hourly train service?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It may be a return on investment calculation. If GO can get more riders using those crews for 30 min Lakeshore trains vs adding trains to Brampton or Meadowvale, then isn't that the best use of limited resources?

I haven't seen the numbers to indicate that 30 Min Lakeshore is indeed a better ROI, but I haven't seen anything to show that a Brampton or Meadowvale service would see ridership levels per train around what Lakeshore sees. If anyone has a more detailed analysis, I'd like to see it.

Bingo, this is money and nothing else.