GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[trainiart]

Richmond Hill is fortunate to have an alternative direct bus to the subway.

...

Brampton, of course, had no easy alternative that Richmond Hill had, and had to deal with a forced transfer that added 20-30 minutes to the trip.

I hear you regarding Brampton troubles. Let's hope the situation improves after Georgetown line upgrade.

For getting to the downtown core, VIVA is most valuable for Thornhill residents, and maybe for those in the very Southern part of Richmond Hill. Riding from anywhere north of Major McKenzie it's a joke. I missed an homebound bus once, decided not to wait for one hour for the next one and take the TTC/VIVA combo instead. Bad decision, took me longer than a wait would have.

But even if VIVA was viable. If the only reason why GO is introducing this train is to push people off GO buses into VIVA and driving, it would've been cheaper just to cancel them and announce "use VIVA guys". Doesn't take a PHD to calculate that the ridership on this train is likely to be lower than that of the cancelled buses combined. If single track on Bala sub prevents them from supplying a deadheaded train to RH earlier, it would be smarter of them to wait till the Bethesda layover is finished and introduce some reasonable train schedule after that, it's only half a year left to complete.

 

[trainiart]

It was mentioned here couple of years ago, and there's some more recent info. Vaughan council wants GO to build a train station in the Kirby Road / Keele Street area, with York re-routing local transit around it. From the Vaughan council meeting minutes on Oct 30, 2012:

The Commissioner of Engineering and Public Works recommends:
...
3. THAT staff work with Metrolinx / GO Transit to advance the feasibility study for a potential new GO Transit Station in the vicinity of Kirby Road and Keele Street, and with York Region Transit to establish the future local transit service plans for the urban expansion areas;
...
Metrolinx / GO Transit continues to review need and justification for additional stations along the Barrie Line
The City and Region’s Transportation Master Plans recommend the establishment of a new GO Rail station in the vicinity of Kirby Road and Keele Street in Block 27 as shown on Attachment No. 4. It is important to note that Council, at its meeting on June 7, 2011, endorsed a resolution that recommended Metrolinx prioritize a third GO Station in Block 27 to serve the growing needs to access rapid transit in Maple.
Metrolinx has advised that this proposed GO Rail Station is not identified in the RTP, however, consideration may be given to conducting a more detailed study for a future GO rail station in this location in the future. The process to review the feasibility of a Go Rail station at this location would entail the completion of a benefits case and a subsequent Environmental Assessment. These studies would be carried out in consultation with local municipalities. It is a policy of ‘The Big Move’ to plan, locate and designate stations to maximize integration with the surrounding neighbourhood to create a walkable environment and optimize development opportunities. Accordingly, staff is recommending that City staff work with Metrolinx/GO to advance the feasibility study for a proposed GO Transit Station in the vicinity of Kirby Road and Keele Street.

At the same time, they're making concrete plans to develop the area:

• Urbanization of Pine Valley Drive between Teston Road and Kirby Road
• Urbanization of Kirby Road between Pine Valley Drive and Keele Street
• The extension of Kirby Road between Dufferin Street and Bathurst Street to improve east-west traffic capacity and connectivity

 

[doady]

If GO were in a position in which it could take over service on Highway 8, then by all means, they should take over that route. However, I don't think that Coach Canada would be that willing to give up their monopoly in the same way that Greyhound would not be that willing to give up their monopoly on Kitchener-Guelph trips.

Wait, so these private bus companies have a monopoly on these bus routes and these monopolies are enforced by the law? The law prohibits competition? Wow, that's really messed up, but I guess that's capitalism for ya.

 

[Wrenkin]

I think the idea is that the government guarantees their income from the inter-city route, and in return they will sometimes do a milk run. But I am not sure. In any event it does lead to weird situations, like where it is more expensive to take the bus from Ottawa to Toronto on Greyhound than it is to buy a 2-segment Montreal to Toronto via Ottawa ticket, but only get on in Ottawa. That's because Coach Canada has the monopoly on direct Montreal to Toronto buses, and Greyhound all buses via Ottawa. But with the Montreal to Toronto via Ottawa route Greyhound is actually forced to compete. And they can't stop you getting on in Ottawa, since they're barred from selling a direct tickets. Instead you get two tickets, and you throw the Montreal bit out. It's actually two different buses with a connection. Anybody doing a round trip to Ottawa will save at least $20 this way.

 

[rbt]

Wait, so these private bus companies have a monopoly on these bus routes and these monopolies are enforced by the law? The law prohibits competition? Wow, that's really messed up, but I guess that's capitalism for ya.

Routes in Ontario are typically bid on as packages with 1 or 2 profitable routes combined with a half dozen that require subsidies and have minimum service levels.

Greyhound has threatened to stop running some popular route unless they can reduce service on the others on more than one occassion.

 

[TOareaFan]

For those that have been suggesting Lakeshore level service would arrive on the KW line in 2015...here is an update

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/article/1598064--metrolinx-delays-all-day-go-plan-for-brampton

 

[ShonTron]

For those that have been suggesting Lakeshore level service would arrive on the KW line in 2015...here is an update

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/article/1598064--metrolinx-delays-all-day-go-plan-for-brampton

First of all, this isn't big news. The level of service proposed for 2015 when the Georgetown South corridor work is complete wasn't going to be much more than doubling the number of trains currently operating to Brampton - basically a few more express/local pairings and shoulder peak runs.

I am concerned about the talk that plans for all-day, two-way service would be delayed further concerning, as I would have expected this to come after 2015, but not too much longer than that (by 2018).

Hey, keep positive. Maybe the Georgetown/Kitchener Line can get some parking garages!

 

[TOareaFan]

First of all, this isn't big news. The level of service proposed for 2015 when the Georgetown South corridor work is complete wasn't going to be much more than doubling the number of trains currently operating to Brampton - basically a few more express/local pairings and shoulder peak runs.

I am concerned about the talk that plans for all-day, two-way service would be delayed further concerning, as I would have expected this to come after 2015, but not too much longer than that (by 2018).

Hey, keep positive. Maybe the Georgetown/Kitchener Line can get some parking garages!

Anyone following my posts on this matter should know that I am not at all surprised by this.....I have been in communication with GO/Metrolinx directly and have shared what they have told me on this matter here before.

What invariably happens, though, is that some people "slough off" that information with comments like "of course they would say that now but a lot can and will change by 2015"....it is not true at all.

All the line is getting (relative to the pre-construction status) is 10 additional trips (5 each way). The implication of this (to me) is quite huge. In an time when governments at all levels are floating balloons to get public support for additional taxation (we don't call it that we now call it "revenue tools" to invest billions in public transit, I think it is imperative that they are able to show a return.

According to the various project documents that GO/Metrolinx have published, the investment in the GTS is $1.2B (there is another figure to add to that for the UP which, if i recall correctly was over $400 million)....if all we get for $1.2B is the ability to move an additional 7,000 (I think the capacity of 10 car GO trains is around 1,400) people in and out of the city (assuming that is a net figure - not likely as train additions are usually accompanied by bus cancellations) then what is the cost-return analysis?

I will benefit, I guess, from these additional trains....but really, even as a transit advocate if I had been told "we will invest $1.2B to move 7,000 more people by train"...I would have said, "not worth it, spend it somewhere where you get more return for the money."

I think you were making a joke about parking garages but it is a pretty clear sign (IMO) where service levels are going to be improved by GO by where they are building parking garages....and none of them are on that line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You believe susan fennell? She's just saying that to take heat off her after the reports of the bogus salary she got last year. Brampton will get all day service before 2020 by the latest.

 

[nfitz]

The level of service proposed for 2015 when the Georgetown South corridor work is complete wasn't going to be much more than doubling the number of trains currently operating to Brampton - basically a few more express/local pairings and shoulder peak runs.

Generally I think your correct.

But there was mid-day service back before the work started on the upgrade to the line. Looking back at this January 2010 schedule there were departures from Bramalea to Union at 10:25 AM, 12:15 PM, and 13:45 PM and departures from Union to Bramalea at 9:40 AM, 11:30 AM, 1 PM, and 2:45 PM.

Presumably this mid-day service, would be restored when construction ends. In fact, when they cancelled these trains in April 2010, they said this was temporary:

GO is undertaking a number of construction projects and infrastructure improvements along the Georgetown corridor. During this time, an hourly bus service provides a faster and more convenient option for midday travel. This bus service will replace the e midday trains that run every 90 minutes. The replacement bus service is a temporary solution so that in the long term, GO can serve customers more efficiently on this train line. Now, instead of three eastbound and three westbound train trips, there will be 12 new eastbound and 10 new westbound bus trips

I wouldn't expect hourly service, but I'd think they'd at least restore the trains that they said they were temporarily cutting because of construction.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Anyone following my posts on this matter should know that I am not at all surprised by this.....I have been in communication with GO/Metrolinx directly and have shared what they have told me on this matter here before.

What invariably happens, though, is that some people "slough off" that information with comments like "of course they would say that now but a lot can and will change by 2015"....it is not true at all.

All the line is getting (relative to the pre-construction status) is 10 additional trips (5 each way). The implication of this (to me) is quite huge. In an time when governments at all levels are floating balloons to get public support for additional taxation (we don't call it that we now call it "revenue tools" to invest billions in public transit, I think it is imperative that they are able to show a return.

According to the various project documents that GO/Metrolinx have published, the investment in the GTS is $1.2B (there is another figure to add to that for the UP which, if i recall correctly was over $400 million)....if all we get for $1.2B is the ability to move an additional 7,000 (I think the capacity of 10 car GO trains is around 1,400) people in and out of the city (assuming that is a net figure - not likely as train additions are usually accompanied by bus cancellations) then what is the cost-return analysis?

I will benefit, I guess, from these additional trains....but really, even as a transit advocate if I had been told "we will invest $1.2B to move 7,000 more people by train"...I would have said, "not worth it, spend it somewhere where you get more return for the money."

I think you were making a joke about parking garages but it is a pretty clear sign (IMO) where service levels are going to be improved by GO by where they are building parking garages....and none of them are on that line.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2013/03/27/audit_needed_in_brampton.html

Your mayor is full of hot air. I think Brampton will get more then double what they have now. That's not even enough anyway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Generally I think your correct.

But there was mid-day service back before the work started on the upgrade to the line. Looking back at this January 2010 schedule there were departures from Bramalea to Union at 10:25 AM, 12:15 PM, and 13:45 PM and departures from Union to Bramalea at 9:40 AM, 11:30 AM, 1 PM, and 2:45 PM.

Presumably this mid-day service, would be restored when construction ends. In fact, when they cancelled these trains in April 2010, they said this was temporary:


I wouldn't expect hourly service, but I'd think they'd at least restore the trains that they said they were temporarily cutting because of construction.

That's pitiful for a city of 550,000

 

[ShonTron]

Generally I think your correct.

But there was mid-day service back before the work started on the upgrade to the line. Looking back at this January 2010 schedule there were departures from Bramalea to Union at 10:25 AM, 12:15 PM, and 13:45 PM and departures from Union to Bramalea at 9:40 AM, 11:30 AM, 1 PM, and 2:45 PM.

Presumably this mid-day service, would be restored when construction ends. In fact, when they cancelled these trains in April 2010, they said this was temporary:


I wouldn't expect hourly service, but I'd think they'd at least restore the trains that they said they were temporarily cutting because of construction.

Actually, I hope this isn't the case. The midday train schedule was pretty crummy, especially for the forced transfer from points west of Bramalea. With the extra platform capacity at Brampton and Mount Pleasant, and the double-tracking of the Credit River bridge, I would hope that GO would actually use it! I want the only trains coming and going from Bramalea to be the rush hour locals.

The plans said 29 revenue GO train movements in 2015 - that's 14 trains in and out (and presumably at least one deadhead to or from Willowbrook). The current trains on the corridor are some of the most overcrowded in the system, and Georgetown/Kitchener is the only line without capacity improvements in years now.

Here's how I'd like to see those 29 trains allocated:
Early AM 10-car train from Georgetown
Four express 12-car trains from Kitchener, express from Bramalea.
Four local 10 or 12-car trains from Bramalea
New 10-car train from Georgetown to arrive at Union around 9:15
New train to depart Mount Pleasant (using returning trainset) to arrive at Union around 10AM.
New train to depart Mount Pleasant (using returning trainset) to arrive at Union around 11AM.
New train to depart Mount Pleasant (using returning trainset) to arrive at Union around 12PM.


Buses from that point on, but perhaps one or two inbound revenue trains mid-afternoon to get trainsets back to Union.

From Union:

Perhaps a mid-morning and/or noon-hour revenue outbound runto get trainsets to Mount Pleasant.
All-stop trains to Mount Pleasant or Georgetown leaving around 14:30 and 15:30
Four local and four express trains
Existing train, though leaving around 18:15
New train leaving around 19:00

Buses from that point on, but at least it would be easy to run special event trains with the corridor opened up.

If the Kitchener line got that, it wouldn't be too bad. The Route 31 bus service is certainly a lot better these days.

 

[TOareaFan]

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2013/03/27/audit_needed_in_brampton.html

Your mayor is full of hot air. I think Brampton will get more then double what they have now. That's not even enough anyway.

Except, in this case, her hot air is exactly what GO/Metrolinx tell people who ask them directly (like me).....there are going to 29 trains a day (they do not identify a schedule but they must have an idea as that is a pretty specific number)....exactly 10 trains (5 each way) more than pre-construction.

So, $1.2B for 5 additional return trips.!

 

[mpd618]

Wait, so these private bus companies have a monopoly on these bus routes and these monopolies are enforced by the law? The law prohibits competition? Wow, that's really messed up, but I guess that's capitalism for ya.

The Ontario Highway Transport Board does this completely closed-door balancing where they award monopolies on profitable routes, supposedly in a fair exchange for those private companies providing subsidized service. Proposed licenses are presented in the Ontario Gazette, and you can object only if you have an economic interest, i.e. you're a competing operator.

GO Transit has an exemption, and does not have to go through the OHTB process for either trains or buses. In practice, they seem wary of upsetting the OHTB turf.

Are we getting a good deal? Probably not. We would be far better off if it were GO Transit taking those monopoly profits and running the subsidized service as well. But politically that probably would be a no-go. Meanwhile GO competing on a profitable Greyhound route would jeopardize the latter's provision of subsidized service elsewhere (assuming they do it to any significant extent...).