GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[drum118]

 

[Urban Sky]

@Urban Sky
Any help on the above most appreciated!

Thanks for that link. From what I was able to translate, some points seemed to be

- The train technology is leaning to small trainsets that don't come anywhere close to GO capacities or operating envelope. Closer to a single bilevel in passenger loads than a 12-car GO train.
- These trains are similar to hybrid autos - to achieve reasonable acceleration, they need storage batteries that are replenished from regen braking. The economics of these thus favours service with frequent start-stop cycles of operation.
- Much depends on where one can find a supply of hydrogen, and what technology can be used to produce it. The study suggests that some of the German supply will originate from existing chemical plants and refineries. In effect they will be co-producing or deriving the hydrogen from byproducts of existing industrial processes. The nature of these processes, and how they are fuelled, determines whether or not the resulting hydrogen train is carbon-favourable to diesel. Some industrial processes may provide hydrogen but at a hefty carbon price.
- Standards and regulations for storing shipping and handling hydrogen are not in place on the scale that would be needed to fuel trains or provide safety assurance in rail passenger operations. In fact, the whole hydrogen handling and fuelling technology is still being thought through.
- One bright point - the maintenance cost of these units will be less than diesel (although not necessarily less than wire based electrics)

The business case summary is a bit skimpy, but a quote from the summary kind of sums things up (as best as Google translated it) -



All of which leaves me in the same place - very promising technology, but a decade or more away. We need still wires over our GO network, and quickly.

- Paul

Some more highlights:
- comparison fuel-cell vs. diesel for a LINT 54 train set with 160 seats (pp. 199-210)

• costs: approx. 5.3 million Euros per train (net of sales tax) vs. 4.3 million for diesel train
• fuel consumption: 0.23 kg H2/km
• reach: 600 km (vs. 1,600 km with diesel)
• maintenance cost: maximum 10% lower than with diesel

- conclusion and recommendations (p.272)
"The deployment of fuel cell trainsets represents an emission-free complement of electrical train operations. The advantages over conventional diesel traction can be summarised, as follows:

• An emission-free passenger operation is possible
• Safe passenger operations are not depending on the mode of traction
• Mixed operations (H2 - diesel) are possible without restrictions
• The significant efficiency advantages show themselves especially on routes with frequent stops and changing elevation profiles
• The maintenance of a fuel-cell vehicle is 10% lower than with conventional diesel traction
• A reduced fuel capacity necessitates a changed fuelling cycle (i.e. daily fuelling)

The results of this study demonstrate that the basic conditions are suitable for the deployment of fuel cell trainsets and that this deployment may be economic under certain preconditions."

 

[steveintoronto]

"The deployment of fuel cell trainsets represents an emission-free complement of electrical train operations...."

The use of the word "complement" ("of electrical train operations") is key.

this deployment may be economic under certain preconditions."

And those "preconditions" don't exist in Ontario, not least because we don't have the federal program that Germany has and funds.

Many of the comments at Munro's site on this are well-researched and thoughtful:
https://stevemunro.ca/2017/10/25/metrolinx-mulls-strategy-largely-in-private/#comments

All of which leaves me in the same place - very promising technology, but a decade or more away. We need still wires over our GO network, and quickly.

There's remarkably little public support for this, and as is obvious to most if not all in these fora, the case for this just isn't there in this context...so one has to wonder:
"How desperate is Il Duce to misl....look! Squirrel!"

 

[wopchop]

This government is getting more useless by the day. I will be surprised if the electrification scheme survives the election, and decide to ditch this hydrogen proposal and leave it for a future development.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd like to know which lobbyist put the idea into their heads. Or whether they just went looking for an excuse to delay electrification. It's blatantly obvious that physics will not allow storage of sufficient density to allow a 1:1 locomotive replacement for the current GO locos. So that means they have to add more trains for the same amount of hourly throughput. Now, this may not be a bad thing. But surely not what they intended and/or what they are designing the network for. If the hydrail trainsets have one third the capacity that means 5 min frequencies at peak. Great. But I doubt that's their intention.

 

[jje1000]

I'd like to know which lobbyist put the idea into their heads. Or whether they just went looking for an excuse to delay electrification. It's blatantly obvious that physics will not allow storage of sufficient density to allow a 1:1 locomotive replacement for the current GO locos. So that means they have to add more trains for the same amount of hourly throughput. Now, this may not be a bad thing. But surely not what they intended and/or what they are designing the network for. If the hydrail trainsets have one third the capacity that means 5 min frequencies at peak. Great. But I doubt that's their intention.

From water to hydrogen to zero emission transport
Mississauga's Hydrogenics makes hydrogen fuel cells used in an aircraft and part of first zero-emission train in Europe.

Hydrogenics has a contract with French multinational Alstom to build zero-emission commuter trains for use in five German cities – which would be the first in the world.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2016/12/27/from-water-to-hydrogen-to-zero-emission-transport.html

Any connections here?

In September, Metrolinx issued a request for proposals for concept designs of such vehicles. It intends to engage as many as four manufacturers to prepare concepts, starting in November and finishing by next March. It will pay each manufacturer a stipend, if they submit a completed design package by the end of this period. It is also hiring Hydrogenics to prepare a reference design kit for the companies and to support them during the design phase.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/10/metrolinx-continues-hydrogen-fuel-cell-study-power-trains

Elections Ontario connections?
https://www4.elections.on.ca/internetapp/ContributionResult.aspx?SearchType=1&QueryType=0&Contributor=Hydrogenics &ContributorType=-1&EventType=-1&Year=Select...&ContributionType=1&Greater=&lang=en-ca
Lobbyist List:
https://lobbyist.oico.on.ca/Pages/Public/PublicSearch/SearchResults.aspx

Then again, I wonder if there might be some meeting lists as well. Still loose connections atm, and it might not be just Hydrogenics or even Hydrogenics at all. But regardless, this hydrogen shift is too abrupt to be the result of years of thought- same as the Del Duca GO stations (which benefit developers).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'd like to know which lobbyist put the idea into their heads. Or whether they just went looking for an excuse to delay electrification. It's blatantly obvious that physics will not allow storage of sufficient density to allow a 1:1 locomotive replacement for the current GO locos. So that means they have to add more trains for the same amount of hourly throughput. Now, this may not be a bad thing. But surely not what they intended and/or what they are designing the network for. If the hydrail trainsets have one third the capacity that means 5 min frequencies at peak. Great. But I doubt that's their intention.

From the Star:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...rack-for-next-generation-of-clean-trains.html

At this point, I'd consider Del Duca public enemy #1 to sound transit policy.

AoD

 

[Allandale25]

So, can the proponents who want this really be able to provide Metrolinx with enough data that they can build a heavy-rail hydrogen powered engine by the time Metrolinx needs to make a vehicle choice? When would that be again? Sometime in 2018 after a RFQ and RFP? Or early 2019? Of course, this assumes, regardless of the engine technology, a new government doesn't make any other changes to the RER program.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

My Christmas wish: someone reveals some dirt on this Minister that gives a sound reason to remove him from the post.

On another note:

I've been thinking lately. Would a hydrogen fuelled locomotive be considered under the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act? It is after all transporting a dangerous fuel across heavy rail intertwined with freight trains.

Then there's the question of Transport Canada/FRA compliance which probably make the feesability of hydrogen a non-starter.

 

[steveintoronto]

My Christmas wish: someone reveals some dirt on this Minister that gives a sound reason to remove him from the post.

On another note:

I've been thinking lately. Would a hydrogen fuelled locomotive be considered under the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act? It is after all transporting a dangerous fuel across heavy rail intwined with freight trains.

Then there's the question of Transport Canada/FRA compliance which probably make the feasibility of hydrogen a non-starter.

It's an interesting question, but the Feds (Natural Resources) are also looking at this. The bottom line is *massive cost* of infrastructure. *Multiples more* than the cost of good old, well proven catenary.

Il Duce needs a good smack or two to get serious. Not to mentio...Look! Squirrel!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And hydrogen isn't all that clean unless you use electrolysis (with power from carbon neutral sources) - but why do it that way when you can use it straight up from the power plant without additional conversion losses unless you are absolutely allergic to electrification? Oh and geez:

https://www.railwaysuppliers.ca/download.php?id=224

AoD

 

[jje1000]

From the Star:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...rack-for-next-generation-of-clean-trains.html

At this point, I'd consider Del Duca public enemy #1 to sound transit policy.

AoD

Yes. Toss this onto the pile along with the whole Green Energy Act and the Scarborough RT.

Becoming a world leader in a new technology/ industry works best via subsidies, contained testing (i.e. hydrogen only on a specific segment), and export deals in the initial phases, not turning your province into a living test subject. Follow Quebec's method of subsidizing and connecting companies to university research.

If the Liberals can't even deliver on transit, that's simply another reason why they need to be turfed.



Look at these quotes from the article- if they don't raise red flags, I don't know what to do:

Perhaps most contentiously, however, Metrolinx says adopting hydrogen trains on the GO network “could position Ontario to be a global leader in hydrogen technology and kick-start the hydrogen economy.”

Sounds ominously similar to the Green Energy Act...

"Ontario's Green Energy Act represents North America's most ambitious and far reaching enabling legislation and will place Ontario as a world leader in renewable energy development, industrial innovation and climate protection."

Untested implementation:

How easily that technology could be adapted for the GO network is unclear. The Alstom train being tested in Europe is a light rail vehicle considerably smaller than the GO trains that will operate under RER, which will consist of up to 12 heavy double-decker cars.

“To do something on the GO track requires an entirely different scale of vehicle.”

If hydrogen fuel cells could be deployed on GO trains, it’s not clear that any manufacturer could supply enough vehicles to meet the RER program requirements. Metrolinx estimates it could need more than 300 of the vehicles by 2025.

It sounds so simple... but those are often famous last words.

Daryl Wilson, CEO of Hydrogenics, believes that timeline is possible. He argued both hydrogen fuel cells and heavy electric rail vehicles are already on the market, they just need to be combined.

“If we’re taking mature fuel-cell technology and putting it on a mature train platform, then it’s not as big a leap as folks may think at first blush,” he said.

To Murtaza Haider, an associate professor at Ryerson University who specializes in transit planning, the province’s apparent desire to create a market for locally-made hydrogen trains sounds “eerily similar” to plans for the Scarborough RT decades ago.

In the 1980s, a provincially-owned company developed the RT system with the goal of selling it to cities around the world. Ultimately, only Vancouver and Detroit bought in.

Haider’s advice to Metrolinx is to stick with traditional electrification and “don’t try to be global leaders in anything.”

“I’m not against hydrogen technology. I’m not saying it’s not possible. I’m saying, why should we turn Ontarians into guinea pigs for an unproven technology?”

Thankfully, Metrolinx seems to be cautious for now- but the Del Duca stations show how easily the government can override what's supposed to be an independence, impartial agency.

Phil Verster, Metrolinx’s new CEO, was appointed after the hydrogen project launched. He admitted to reporters last month he doesn’t see making the province a leader in the hydrogen industry as “an objective for Metrolinx.”

Verster promised the agency will be cautious, and will only commit to technology that is “tested.”

“Clearly, our main objective here is to deliver RER, and to deliver that to the best possible timeline and the best possible cost line,” he said.

“So there will be choices for us to make.”

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If the Liberals can't even deliver on transit, that's simply another reason why they need to be turfed.

We need better alternatives on that front - none of the three major parties inspires much trust (just think - they've all fallen heads over heel over BD extension to SCC, sans questions).

AoD

 

[44 North]

Since we're the largest uranium producer in the modern world, with the third largest reserves, perhaps Metrolinx could consider nuclear-powered trains. Roving power plants may even be able to backfeed into the power grid benefiting all.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Since we're the largest uranium produces in the modern world, with the third largest reserves, perhaps Metrolinx could consider nuclear-powered trains. Roving power plants may even be able to backfeed into the power grid benefiting all.

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I would love to have 70 nuclear reactors running around the region. The when someone hacks the systems, we can have 70 nuclear meltdowns with GREAT COVERAGE.

I don’t see this happening as it’s even less likely than Hydrogen. Standard electrification with catenary should be the way to go.