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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

The largest application I could see for this is small UPx type trains doing off peak service on low demand corridors. Could allow for all day expansion to places like Stouffville, or allow them to bring train service to Brantford, for example.
 
I would like to see GO have its base fare be something like $2 instead of $5 and have it rank up to $5 by the time you leave Toronto, and to have the $0.75 transfer to TTC policy in place.

GO shouldn't be the same price as the TTC IMO, but it should be an option for people who are willing to spend a bit more. It is barely an option today with its fares being so high, but if you can get from, say, Eglinton GO to downtown for $3.20 with PRESTO instead of the current $4.82 and with a $0.75 local bus fare, getting downtown with GO would be priced around $4, and take roughly 25 minutes to get downtown. that would be attractive to a lot of people.

I don't really see why we should have a "premium" public transit system - that sorta defeats the point of public transit. Within Toronto, Go Transit shouldn't cost any more than the TTC, and it shouldn't cost money to transfer between GO and TTC services. That should be true with all the local transit systems too - if someone wants to travel from Oshawa to Pickering, they should pay the same fare regardless of which public transit route they use. The current fares aren't unreasonable for inter-municipality transfers, but they should include local transit transfers in them.
 
The Metrolinx is in bed with Alstom atm, and this hydrogen thing I suspect is another move to favor Alstom in Ontario’s future.

I so tired of Metrolinx attending to its own political interests and not actually doing anything.
 
I don't really see why we should have a "premium" public transit system - that sorta defeats the point of public transit. Within Toronto, Go Transit shouldn't cost any more than the TTC, and it shouldn't cost money to transfer between GO and TTC services. That should be true with all the local transit systems too - if someone wants to travel from Oshawa to Pickering, they should pay the same fare regardless of which public transit route they use. The current fares aren't unreasonable for inter-municipality transfers, but they should include local transit transfers in them.

first of all nowhere in the dictionary will you find public transit and premium have a direct correlation. you really need to look up on the economics of public transit. no way can higher order transit cost the same to operate compared to a city bus. where do you expect to generate revenue? it would be absolutely niave to assume that cheap fares will mulitply riders to a factor that will offset the costs of owning, operating and maintaining. YRT for example is obligated to provide transit to a stretch of land twice the size of metro toronto with half the population. you expect people in east gwillimbury and aurora to come out in droves to offset costs of transit up north? good luck. preach as you will for equalisation but there will always be a price differential between a bus and an express train. this is a universal fact in every single city around the world that has local, regional and express public transit on road and on rail.
 
Has anyone found a good source comparing the various technical and economic issues of hydrogen propulsion to conventional electric propulsion for rail?

Wires involve a huge carbon investment to construct (much concrete, and much metal mined, refined, transported and erected) and some energy is lost in delivery to the vehicle (transmission losses) but thanks to regenerative braking energy is used quite efficiently.

Hydrogen is a smaller up front carbon investment, but there is no regeneration, and the energy cycle has an extra step (produce electricity, use it to make Hydrogen, deliver it by non-wire technology to the vehicle, then burn it to make electricity). I wonder how much energy is lost in delivering it and how efficient the conversions to and from hydrogen are.

Bottom line - wires are ugly, expensive, and still have a carbon footprint. I'm wondering if hydrogen is actually cheaper, or just lesss 'noxious'.

- Paul
 
To add to this mess, 2 single cars is only good for UPX or service on a new line when 4 cars DD are require and going to be a decade or 2 down the road before they show up. Only then can we look at either maintaining the electrification that needs to be started being built next year to using both systems or removing the electrification. Time to building electrification now on approve technology to better everyone than wait another decade or more for an unproven technology like we are so great at doing.

Fuel cell tram enters service in Tangshan
 
Thanks for that link, @drum118, it puts things in perspective. If that Chinese tram were used for UPE, it would need to refuel at the end of every run, a 15 minute layover. And it would take much longer to make the trip. Would we feel safe with a Hydrogen handling and refuelling facility at Toronto Union or in the Pearson compound?

Kind of like the Nissan Leaf - a step forward to be sure, but too small, too expensive, and too limited a range to replace my family auto. Maybe in a few years.....

- Paul
 
Wires involve a huge carbon investment to construct (much concrete, and much metal mined, refined, transported and erected) and some energy is lost in delivery to the vehicle (transmission losses)
Xmssn losses are almost insignificant in a modern AC system. Regeneration is desirable, but only adds back a fraction of what is used. A lot depends on how the regenerative energy is used (returned to the catenary or used for lower grade purposes, like heating or recharging batteries) It's value is more a form of 'resistive braking' since the source impedance is lowered to the point of being a shunt across the motors.

Hydrogen is a smaller up front carbon investment, but there is no regeneration,
There certainly is regeneration in the systems described, but again, not significantly higher than a catenary system, albeit yet again it depends on how it's captured and utilized.

The *very real* problem is the limited torque from a hydrail system compared to ample catenary supply. Hydrail, as it stands now, is only suffice to drive a small mass vehicle, and even then, carries a disproportionate amount of weight in the batteries and generators, not to mention the *many* problems of hydrogen supply.

Catenary AC of sufficient capacity can supply multiples more power than many diesel engines coupled together. Even in primitive forms, it was used to haul heavy freight over mountain ranges, and still does much more efficiently in modern AC form. (Early one were more similar to tram lower voltage DC supplies)
 
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Xmssn losses are almost insignificant in a modern AC system. Regeneration is desirable, but only adds back a fraction of what is used. A lot depends on how the regenerative energy is used (returned to the catenary or used for lower grade purposes, like heating or recharging batteries) It's value is more a form of 'resistive braking' since the source impedance is lowered to the point of being a shunt across the motors.

Hmmm..... that statement doesn't align with what I have been told elsewhere..... certain electric loco builders/ operators are pretty proud of how much energy their regen braking captures, reducing the use of friction braking to virtually zero. Admittedly, they maximise the diversion of that braking energy to HEP etc. but they sure try to put the energy back in the wires for reuse, as opposed to resistive braking which converts the energy to heat and 'wastes' it.
But that's a nitpick and I won't debate that point. The explanation about current fuel cells producing too little traction for the full GO RER/UPE operating requirement is the key point.
I was in Kelowna BC a couple of weeks back. They have a taxi company there that uses Teslas. There was a large charging lot outside my hotel window where cabs recharged. Seemed to imply a lot of down time. Forward looking to be sure, but a fleet of Prius's is probably more efficient, gas and all. Progress takes time.

- Paul
 
certain electric loco builders/ operators are pretty proud of how much energy their regen braking captures, reducing the use of friction braking to virtually zero.
This is always under ideal conditions. Transformer and inductive device (e.g AC motors) highest efficiency occurs at a certain load point, and so manufacturers will state that as their claim (IC engines, for instance, at certain revs and intake pressure, often without accessory loads counted, like A/C, pumps and alternators). Under certain conditions, like regional service, locos (and EMUs) will display an ideal recovery of about 30% from braking, but of course, that's relative to the amount of energy used to achieve that speed (kinetic inertia) in the first place. Long distance, that ratio will sink, ditto short distance due to losses overwhelming the recovery gain.

Make no mistake, regenerative recovery makes a lot of sense, especially since it's so easily attained with modern control systems, but let me restate the point in this context: Catenary v. Hydrail, by the simple theory I understand at this point, catenary will recover slightly more due to the much lower source impedance. Think of it as a much larger flywheel, and suddenly you apply a negative (regenerative) force to it. The greater the moment mass of the flywheel, the lower the source impedance, and thus the greater the breaking effort/regenerative capture.

Another analogy: A large engine in a car on the highway v. a smaller one. All other things equal, not only do you get greater acceleration, you get greater deceleration when you take your foot off of the accelerator with the larger engine. With the smaller engine, the mass of the vehicle is far more prone to 'freewheel' the engine since resistance is so much less.

The way to make a Hydrail unit act more like a catenary source is to add more battery. But then you lose thrust to mass ratio even more. One of the huge advantages for off-vehicle power source for catenary locos is that thrust to weight ratio. It's unmatched by any other practical means at this time, save for perhaps linear induction, but has a host of problems too, and isn't inside the sphere of this discussion.

Hydrail has its uses, doubtless, but not for GO RER. Beyond the catenary network, yes, but even there sourcing the hydrogen is still highly problematic. In Germany's case, it's far easier, as it's part of a much larger federal program to supply H as an alternative fuel.

That does not exist in Canada, or many other nations. It's peculiar to Germany for reasons I'll reference if challenged. That's a massive point you touch on, and one that the 'obfuscators' don't care to discuss, let alone mention.

Edit to Add: Since this aspect is extremely important in the discussion of Hydrail (and one the 'proponents' are unlikely to discuss) I'll attempt to define 'source impedance' as that relates to battery storage v. catenary.

I've looked at various definitions, the easiest ones aren't entirely correct, the more correct ones are too technical for the layperson, and the point for this purpose gets lost.

The output impedance of an electrical network is the measure of the opposition to current flow (impedance), both static (resistance) and dynamic (reactance), into the load network being connected that is internal to the electrical source. The output impedance is a measure of the source's propensity to drop in voltage when the load draws current. The source network being the portion of the network that transmits and the load network being the portion of the network that consumes.

Because of this the output impedance is sometimes referred to as the source impedance or internal impedance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Output_impedance

This can be explained much more easily with an intuitive analogy, and a gear-box (or continually variable xmssn) into and out of a flywheel is one analogy that could do so. There's irony in that, as the early Routemaster buses tried this form of energy storage, and they came up against the 'energy density' problem: Propensity for catastrophic failure of the storage device. In the case of the Routemasters, the flywheels would de-laminate in an explosion that destroyed the bus. We're seeing this now with Lithium-Ion batteries, albeit a chemical reaction, not mechanical.

I'll see what I can find on-line later that puts the flywheel analogy in a more understandable way as per 'source impedance'. You've already touched on it with the tram analogy. At the risk of technically misstating this, "underpowered" will have to suffice for now.

Late Edit to Add: Wow! I went looking for the reference to the Sixties Routemaster mechanical flywheel experiments, and if you pardon the pun, that's come a full revolution since. I know Paul and a few others will find this very interesting, I suggest reading the entire article, this is another branch really of the Hydrail discussion, more comment on this later:

Urban legend: Hybrid bus technology
By Kate Cummins 29th November 2010 12:00 am
[...]
flybus project in depth
The CVT/flywheel system offers an alternative to battery-based engines. The Flybus project began last year with the aim of demonstrating a viable alternative to battery-based hybrid buses. Earlier this month, construction of the first prototype vehicle began, which – according to project leaders – could deliver up to 20 per cent savings in energy consumption.

The project is headed by transmission company Torotrak, with contributions from Ricardo, Optare and Allison Transmissions. Research is based around Torotrak’s Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) technology, together with a high-speed composite flywheel for an energy-storage system known as ’Kinergy’.

The team has used the high-speed flywheel, which recycles the kinetic energy that would otherwise be wasted in the brakes. As the bus slows, instead of converting its kinetic energy into heat in the brakes, the CVT transfers energy to the flywheel, spinning it up to speeds of around 60,000rpm.

When the vehicle pulls away from rest, the CVT returns energy from the flywheel to the bus, meaning there is less work for the engine to do and reducing fuel consumption. In the process, the flywheel gives up energy and slows down until re-energised during the next vehicle deceleration.

According to Torotrak’s engineering director, Roger Stone, the technology offers easier installation than battery-electric systems. It also provides comparable gains in fuel economy in a package that is half the size, half the weight and a quarter of the cost. [...]
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/29-november-2010/urban-legend-hybrid-bus-technology/

Edit to further add:

Note reference to "Torotrak"above. That was seven years ago. Fast forward to this year, and due to being subscription only, I'll only quote a few paragraphs from the Financial Times:
Torotrak suffers as focus switches to electric cars
Traditional technology manufacturer loses out as groups invest in alternative energy

FEBRUARY 5, 2017

upload_2017-10-28_13-16-12.png

[...]
https://www.ft.com/content/456cc28e-e976-11e6-967b-c88452263daf

As indicative as this is for 'the electric route', it does not follow that Hydrail will do the same for catenary, *even if* it does for diesel.
 

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To add to this mess, 2 single cars is only good for UPX or service on a new line when 4 cars DD are require and going to be a decade or 2 down the road before they show up. Only then can we look at either maintaining the electrification that needs to be started being built next year to using both systems or removing the electrification. Time to building electrification now on approve technology to better everyone than wait another decade or more for an unproven technology like we are so great at doing.

Fuel cell tram enters service in Tangshan
Agreed on all points, and a 'thank-you' for the link leading to other very valuable ones, including this, albeit far more relevant to the DRL one being RER, not conventional subway. (Torontonians in general still fail to grasp the benefits of through-running RER)
[...]
TfL predicts that the Elizabeth Line will ‘transform’ how passengers get around London, and as a result it is expecting nearly 10 000 fewer eastbound Jubilee Line trips being made each day, and 5 500 fewer trips from Stratford to Canary Wharf. In addition, the return of a full Thameslink rail service to London Bridge station once the Thameslink Programme of upgrades is completed is expected to reduce westbound demand on the Jubilee Line from Canada Water. [...]
http://www.metro-report.com/news/me...ground-capacity-upgrade-programme-paused.html

Indeed!
Also:
[...]
UK: The first of seven Class 399 Citylink vehicles being supplied for the Sheffield – Rotherham tram train project was launched into passenger service with a special run between Nunnery depot and Meadowhall on September 14. Invited guests included Transport Minister Paul Maynard and the CEO of Stadler Rail Valencia Iñigo Parra.

Equipped to take power at 750 V DC and 25 kV 50 Hz, the Valencia-built vehicles were ordered both to work the through service to Rotherham using a new connection to Network Rail tracks near Meadowhall and to augment the existing Sheffield Supertram fleet.

Following delays to the infrastructure works, the Rotherham tram-train service is now expected to begin in the autumn of 2018. In the meantime, the Citylink cars are to be deployed across the existing Supertram network from October, following the completion of commissioning, testing and driver training.

Maynard said the entry into passenger service marked ‘a significant milestone’ for the South Yorkshire tram-train project, which would ‘transform services for passengers, enabling quick and easy movement across the region, reducing journey times and boosting the economy’.[...]
http://www.metro-report.com/news/li...view/sheffield-tram-train-enters-service.html

Metrolinx have a massive opportunity to affect efficiency and forward-compatibility with certain routes to build them to RER gauge and specs, and run them with LRVs until such time as they in entirety, or their outer-reaches, have the ridership numbers to justify full RER operation.

It's precisely where Hydrail might prove effective that LRV's with catenary might still do it better, and cheaper, and far more system-wide compatible than H could or would ever be.
 
Has anyone found a good source comparing the various technical and economic issues of hydrogen propulsion to conventional electric propulsion for rail?

Wires involve a huge carbon investment to construct (much concrete, and much metal mined, refined, transported and erected) and some energy is lost in delivery to the vehicle (transmission losses) but thanks to regenerative braking energy is used quite efficiently.

Hydrogen is a smaller up front carbon investment, but there is no regeneration, and the energy cycle has an extra step (produce electricity, use it to make Hydrogen, deliver it by non-wire technology to the vehicle, then burn it to make electricity). I wonder how much energy is lost in delivering it and how efficient the conversions to and from hydrogen are.

Bottom line - wires are ugly, expensive, and still have a carbon footprint. I'm wondering if hydrogen is actually cheaper, or just lesss 'noxious'.

- Paul

I did some quick searching on Google.de and came across this PDF: Hydrogen Rail Infrastructure Report (Ergebnisbericht Studie Wasserstoff-Infrastruktur für die Schiene).

https://www.now-gmbh.de/content/1-a...verkehr/h2-schiene_ergebnisbericht_online.pdf

It's a heavy read in German but one can get away with using Google Translate.
On page 98 there is a comparison of the Alstom LINT 54 (diesel and fuel cell versions) and the LINT 41 diesel (EVB).

Didn't have enough time to go through the whole document in detail, this will definitely be my Sunday coffee read.
 
I did some quick searching on Google.de and came across this PDF: Hydrogen Rail Infrastructure Report (Ergebnisbericht Studie Wasserstoff-Infrastruktur für die Schiene).

https://www.now-gmbh.de/content/1-a...verkehr/h2-schiene_ergebnisbericht_online.pdf

It's a heavy read in German but one can get away with using Google Translate.
On page 98 there is a comparison of the Alstom LINT 54 (diesel and fuel cell versions) and the LINT 41 diesel (EVB).

Didn't have enough time to go through the whole document in detail, this will definitely be my Sunday coffee read.
@Urban Sky
Any help on the above most appreciated!
 
Thanks for that link. From what I was able to translate, some points seemed to be

- The train technology is leaning to small trainsets that don't come anywhere close to GO capacities or operating envelope. Closer to a single bilevel in passenger loads than a 12-car GO train.
- These trains are similar to hybrid autos - to achieve reasonable acceleration, they need storage batteries that are replenished from regen braking. The economics of these thus favours service with frequent start-stop cycles of operation.
- Much depends on where one can find a supply of hydrogen, and what technology can be used to produce it. The study suggests that some of the German supply will originate from existing chemical plants and refineries. In effect they will be co-producing or deriving the hydrogen from byproducts of existing industrial processes. The nature of these processes, and how they are fuelled, determines whether or not the resulting hydrogen train is carbon-favourable to diesel. Some industrial processes may provide hydrogen but at a hefty carbon price.
- Standards and regulations for storing shipping and handling hydrogen are not in place on the scale that would be needed to fuel trains or provide safety assurance in rail passenger operations. In fact, the whole hydrogen handling and fuelling technology is still being thought through.
- One bright point - the maintenance cost of these units will be less than diesel (although not necessarily less than wire based electrics)

The business case summary is a bit skimpy, but a quote from the summary kind of sums things up (as best as Google translated it) -

In terms of unadjusted infrastructure provisioning costs, the hydrogen infrastructure will not be competitive at the time of launch compared to the diesel infrastructure. In view of the political objective of the emission-free SPNV and the environmental impact and damage to health of the population due to the emission of diesel vehicles, which have not yet been taken into account in the calculation, it is necessary to make the introduction phase more economic for public, semi-public and private actors. With regard to the vehicles, we expect a cost reduction of 10 - 20% in the medium term if larger quantities are sold and technical progress is made. A start-up financing in the form of a subsidy might bridge until the technology is better developed.

All of which leaves me in the same place - very promising technology, but a decade or more away. We need still wires over our GO network, and quickly.

- Paul
 

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