GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[aquateam]

You believe electrification is a waste or the governing party will make mistakes that will result in waste for the electrification project?

Noooo I believe the hydro powering (hydrogenation? Hydrification? Hydration? ) of the GO network is a boondoggle waiting to happen if it goes forward. Electrification is a great idea that reduces operating/maintenance costs, speeds up acceleration of the trains, etc.

But we are looking at large development costs to develop the technology to a scale it's never been done at before, and then just like with the hybrid buses the hydrogen-powered double-deckers will likely turn out to be lemons.

Not Invented Here syndrome has a long and storied history in Ontario (ICTS, eHealth, Presto) and hydrogen-powered trains would fit into that pattern.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Thanks for the clarity.

 

[aquateam]

There's probably good reasons not to do this (for one, you'd need a grid to feed into, or what else do you do with the power, when the train comes to a stop? So you might as well just electrify, and put the nukes on land).

But hack and meltdown? Given the number of reactors we had on university campuses without incident, that seems unlikely.

There's a difference between the CANDU reactors we use in Ontario and the compact type of reactors that would be needed for nuclear-powered trains. CANDU reactors are inherently safe because the coolant is also the moderator, so if the coolant leaks/evaporates then the reaction stops.

One of the bigger technical obstacles to nuclear-powered vehicles is the huge amount of dead weight that is added for shielding (plus a million fail-safe systems). That's why nuclear-powered planes never really went beyond the concept stage, even for military applications. Like you said, makes much more sense to have the heavy systems on land to generate the electricity to drive the trains rather than vice versa.

If you want powerful trains, you should look to jet engines. There used to be a PT6-powered train that went between Montreal and Toronto.

 

[crs1026]

If you want powerful trains, you should look to jet engines. There used to be a PT6-powered train that went between Montreal and Toronto.

Which was first promised for 67, delivered late 68, proved to have teething troubles, failed repeatedly in service through the early seventies, eventually got the bugs out, then settled down in regular service around 1974..

That's the likely scenario for hydrogen. It will work great...... in 2035. Can we wait?

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

That's the likely scenario for hydrogen. It will work great...... in 2035. Can we wait?

Exactly. And even when they get the storage densities they want, it still won't take away from inefficiencies in having to carry your fuel around and keep it compressed. Does nobody at Metrolinx have basic second year thermo?

If they want to use hydrogen, they can. As a way to store energy during off-peak.

 

[kEiThZ]

It'll be interesting to see if the opposition bothers to comment on the hydrogen situation. Or, maybe they don't want to tip their hand because there are a few neighbourhoods in a few ridings where they are fine with some folks being concerned with what the governing party is doing.

The Conservatives probably want to bin the entire electrification program. They aren't fans of transit. And they aren't fans of things like clean energy. The last thing they want to support is project that rolls those together. And to top it off, from their perspective, this is billions for very little reward. More votes to be had using the same dollars to expand GO service further out.

That's why they will not call out the Liberals. If they call them out, they'll be asked what their plans are for electrification. Curious why the NDP aren't going hard at this though....

There's a difference between the CANDU reactors we use in Ontario and the compact type of reactors that would be needed for nuclear-powered trains.

I wonder if they could fit the reactors they have on subs on a train. Not that I'd actually want this for any real purpose....but you know, for science....

If you want powerful trains, you should look to jet engines. There used to be a PT6-powered train that went between Montreal and Toronto.

I think they still have turbines on some trains. They used them on early high speed rail trains. And from my days flying trainers. The PT6 is a fantastic engine.

 

[jje1000]

It begs the question of the reasons they would seek hydrogen technology as an alternative to RER electrification, though.

If they had stated that they would be pursing hydrogen technology on a certain part of the system (i.e. parts of the Barrie line), there would be no cold sweatat the moment.

 

[rbt]

It begs the question of the reasons they would seek hydrogen technology as an alternative to RER electrification, though.

Hamilton tunnel and Kitchener corridor require a ~$10B in investment in order to purchase the track to allow stringing catenary. Not to mention corridors like Milton where there are no options at all for even partial electrification at the moment.

CN/CP have made it extremely clear they will not allow catenary on their land under any circumstances; even if Metrolinx built completely new tracks. If you want to run trains on CN/CP land, and don't want them to be diesel, you need to start getting creative.

 

[mdrejhon]

It begs the question of the reasons they would seek hydrogen technology as an alternative to RER electrification, though.

I go the impression they are focussed on solving the CN/CP sections.

So that means things like Aldershot-Hamilton 15-minute service (Metrolinx 2041 Plan), Hamilton-Niagara, Bowmanville - in these, Hydrogen might be a feasible solution within the next ten years as a Plan B or Plan C.

 

[robmausser]

Hamilton tunnel and Kitchener corridor require a ~$10B in investment in order to purchase the track to allow stringing catenary. Not to mention corridors like Milton where there are no options at all for even partial electrification at the moment.

CN/CP have made it extremely clear they will not allow catenary on their land under any circumstances; even if Metrolinx built completely new tracks. If you want to run trains on CN/CP land, and don't want them to be diesel, you need to start getting creative.

I think this needs federal intervention to put CN and CP in their places. Would be interesting if their government subsidies dried up...

 

[TOareaFan]

I think this needs federal intervention to put CN and CP in their places. Would be interesting if their government subsidies dried up...

what subsidies do they receive (honest question....thought they were on their own as publicly traded entities).

 

[Allandale25]

what subsidies do they receive (honest question....thought they were on their own as publicly traded entities).

Sorry, typed the below and then re-read what you wrote. What type of public subsidizes do you think they might receive? Various tax credits or other incentives?

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I've asked before and GO/VIA won't release how much they pay CP/CN because it is "commercially sensitive". I haven't seen CP or CN's balance sheet so not sure if they have a line item for the revenue they receive from GO/VIA. Even GO doesn't really break it down. On page 50 of the draft Annual Report they list general categories like "facilities and track" and "rail and bus operations". On page 21 of the Business Plan, it just says "transit operations". Maybe CN and CP are only willing to sign deals where they don't have to disclose how much GO and VIA pay.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sorry, typed the below and then re-read what you wrote. What type of public subsidizes do you think they might receive? Various tax credits or other incentives?

I have no idea what types of subsidies they receive....I was asking someone who seems clear they receive something. I am not aware that outside of normal tax rules that govern all businesses that the rail companies receive anything "special"

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I've asked before and GO/VIA won't release how much they pay CP/CN because it is "commercially sensitive". I haven't seen CP or CN's balance sheet so not sure if they have a line item for the revenue they receive from GO/VIA. Even GO doesn't really break it down. On page 50 of the draft Annual Report they list general categories like "facilities and track" and "rail and bus operations". On page 21 of the Business Plan, it just says "transit operations". Maybe CN and CP are only willing to sign deals where they don't have to disclose how much GO and VIA pay.

I don't think you can classify rent/fees to use their assets as "subsidies" just because the entity paying the rent/fees is a government body.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Good points on both counts. I had also misread the "if government subsidies dry up" part by the other commentator. Sorry about that.

 

[ShonTron]

Hamilton tunnel and Kitchener corridor require a ~$10B in investment in order to purchase the track to allow stringing catenary. Not to mention corridors like Milton where there are no options at all for even partial electrification at the moment.

CN/CP have made it extremely clear they will not allow catenary on their land under any circumstances; even if Metrolinx built completely new tracks. If you want to run trains on CN/CP land, and don't want them to be diesel, you need to start getting creative.

They don't want catenary on their freight mainlines. That definitely precludes the Kitchener Line through Brampton, but not necessarily as far as Bramalea, especially after that station is rebuilt, with south tracks separated from the double-stacked through freights. After all, there are several sections of CN-owned track with overhead electric catenary.

"Not on their land under any circumstances" isn't quite the same thing.