GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[robmausser]

I’d imagine they can request CN to permit it. It wouldn’t create any issues for freight trains.

Unfortunately you are 100% wrong. CN has explicitly said that they 100% will not allow electrification on their lines or even NEAR them! As in not in the same corridor even if GO owned the lines. And the reason given by CN is they are concerned about the issues it would potentially create for their double stacked trains.

 

[robmausser]

To be clear, Go Expansion and electrification will only happen on metrolinx owned right-of-ways.
Kitchener 2wad service ends at Bramlea, RH they arent going to add service for a long time. Milton is the same.

LSE, Stouville, Barrie will all get 2wad 15 minute or better service.

KW and LSW are kinda different, they will be getting 2wad but only until a certain point.

Bramlea GO for KW and Burlington for LSW.

Sure purchasing track ROW's would be good investments, but you only need to look at whats needed for it for anyone with sense to shoot it down quickly.

The ‘Missing Link’ would deliver subway-style train service in Mississauga, so why won’t Queen’s Park or Ottawa step up?

The ‘Missing Link’ would deliver subway-style train service in Mississauga, so why won’t Queen’s Park or Ottawa step up?

thepointer.com

The Missing Link: Shaping the Future of the GTHA Rail Network | UrbanToronto

One of the most effective transit upgrades for the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area could come not from building a new transit line, but from building a new freight line: we look at 'The Missing Link'.

urbantoronto.ca

This would be a massive project with great benefits, but its just not going to happen

Same with KW, There are things we can do like building a flyunder for GO owned trackage near Bramlea (silver underpass i think its called)

Like we could wait until MX owns all the ROW's before doing go expansion? But how about no LOL

while the missing link will be nice, so much can be done before it.

The 3rd track in Brampton will facilitate a lot of traffic.

Battery backup or Duel mode locos can bridge the gap between Bramalea and Brampton GO, and the GO owned portions can be electrified.

It is possible to add more tracks to the Milton Line, and while that requires CP's approval, it pales in comparison to what is being asked for the Missing Link.

 

[EnviroTO]

According to any schedule suggested by Metrolinx, when are we going to see the first outputs of the Onxpress contract? I haven't seen any public outreach, plan, or document released yet. The only signs that they are doing anything is the continual notifications in linked in that the team is bigger. Hopefully they are doing something that turns into deliverables.

 

[reaperexpress]

Unfortunately you are 100% wrong. CN has explicitly said that they 100% will not allow electrification on their lines or even NEAR them! As in not in the same corridor even if GO owned the lines. And the reason given by CN is they are concerned about the issues it would potentially create for their double stacked trains.

They did say that, but they might change their minds in the future once Metrolinx already has an extensive electrified network and they can just copy Metrolinx's operational procedures rather than needing to develop their own. As we've established, double-stacked freight trains can operate under electrification.

At this point there is so much Mx-owned trackage which needs to be electrified that even if CN permitted electrification, those lines would be way down the list. The one exception is south pair of tracks in Bramalea Station, which are technically owned by CN though they are pretty much only used by GO.

 

[smallspy]

EMUs do not have "engines" they have motors, and they are generally not noticeably loud and certainly not going to generate huge vibration. The subway trains are EMUs. Tons of long distance services around the world, including most HSR services are EMUs.

There is way more to an EMU than just the motors.

Gearboxes (and final drives), transformers, invertor banks (and other control electronics), air compressors, HVAC, brakes, etc. are all sources of noise and/or vibration.

Unfortunately you are 100% wrong. CN has explicitly said that they 100% will not allow electrification on their lines or even NEAR them! As in not in the same corridor even if GO owned the lines. And the reason given by CN is they are concerned about the issues it would potentially create for their double stacked trains.

It has nothing to do with double-stacks, or autoracks, or hi-cubes, or any other overly-tall equipment. Those are easily solvable, and are already operating every day elsewhere in North America.

The issue stems from how much more difficult it is to deal with in the event of an accident. Or what additional and unwanted effects they may have in the event of an accident.

Dan

 

[Sunnyside]

Not likely. With CN now constructing the Milton Logistics Hub, their portion of track that runs through Aldershot GO just became more valuable. All Metrolinx can do west of Burlington is construct parallel running, dedicated tracks. Not sure how that would work with the Bayview junction.

They did say that, but they might change their minds in the future once Metrolinx already has an extensive electrified network and they can just copy Metrolinx's operational procedures rather than needing to develop their own. As we've established, double-stacked freight trains can operate under electrification.

At this point there is so much Mx-owned trackage which needs to be electrified that even if CN permitted electrification, those lines would be way down the list. The one exception is south pair of tracks in Bramalea Station, which are technically owned by CN though they are pretty much only used by GO.

clearly Metrolinx has optimized the electrification plan for track-kms over anything else. The alternative is to shaft many places to serve fewer/just one elsewhere. Take your pick of where electrification will end and there’s probably a $1B+ reason why:

To/past Aldershot was explained above, but it’s not just about CN’s Milton sub; Bayview Jct’s only true solution is a flyover... then you have to build trackage to pick-a-challenging-Station alongside CN or CP, AND you’ll likely require the $1B tunnel rebuild/retrofit to Hamilton Centre too.

On the Kitchener line, short of the Missing Link you’d need dedicated track and a flyover to just make it to Brampton/mt pleasant, nevermind beyond. This might be the easiest win.

And just forget the Milton Line right now without a magic loan of $3-4B+.

The plus side is that means post-electrification all eyes will be on bringing electrified service levels to these places, which in isolation isnt quite as hard to stomach. At that point, 99% of where electric trains make sense will have them, rendering the core GO services unimpeded by the RRs. Without conflicts/constraints stratifying service (& types), going for EMUs and design flexibilities has alot more marginal utility. This philosophy has to be next, and Milton’s the posterboy given it’d likely be the whole thing at once - think the “Line 10” idea as a loose delivery model.

This all sounds far off, but GO Expansion ‘extensions’ are unequivocally next up once the initial phase is done, and thats no more than a ~decade away. All the planned subways by comparison are more distant and likely collectively larger in scope too.

 

[nfitz]

And just forget the Milton Line right now without a magic loan of $3-4B+.

Alghabra said province would need to kick in $500 million.

All-day GO train plan may be delayed for Mississauga and Milton residents | INsauga

A plan to expand the Milton GO train line that would benefit tens of thousands of Mississauga residents and workers could be indefinitely delayed after the Ontario government failed to set aside money for the initiative in its latest budget, Mississauga Centre MP and federal Transport Minister...

www.insauga.com

 

[afransen]

Alghabra said province would need to kick in $500 million.

All-day GO train plan may be delayed for Mississauga and Milton residents | INsauga

A plan to expand the Milton GO train line that would benefit tens of thousands of Mississauga residents and workers could be indefinitely delayed after the Ontario government failed to set aside money for the initiative in its latest budget, Mississauga Centre MP and federal Transport Minister...

www.insauga.com

I suspect if the price tag was so low (a couple billion), it would be in motion. Mississauga and Milton are swing seats and the Milton Line would be well used. It is a bargain compared to the idea of extending subway into MCC.

 

[Bojaxs]

They did say that, but they might change their minds in the future once Metrolinx already has an extensive electrified network and they can just copy Metrolinx's operational procedures rather than needing to develop their own. As we've established, double-stacked freight trains can operate under electrification.

At this point there is so much Mx-owned trackage which needs to be electrified that even if CN permitted electrification, those lines would be way down the list. The one exception is south pair of tracks in Bramalea Station, which are technically owned by CN though they are pretty much only used by GO.

Freight companies will never embrace EMUs if they infringe on precision scheduled railroading (PSR). Diesel locomotives ensure the trains keep moving. Even if the power goes out.

 

[reaperexpress]

Freight companies will never embrace EMUs if they infringe on precision scheduled railroading (PSR). Diesel locomotives ensure the trains keep moving. Even if the power goes out.

The EMUs are not for freight, they are for local passenger rail service.

 

[cplchanb]

There is way more to an EMU than just the motors.

Gearboxes (and final drives), transformers, invertor banks (and other control electronics), air compressors, HVAC, brakes, etc. are all sources of noise and/or vibration.


It has nothing to do with double-stacks, or autoracks, or hi-cubes, or any other overly-tall equipment. Those are easily solvable, and are already operating every day elsewhere in North America.

The issue stems from how much more difficult it is to deal with in the event of an accident. Or what additional and unwanted effects they may have in the event of an accident.

Dan

typical CN/CP stuck in their 1950s mentalities... they are not pioneers in electrified freight... they have the rest of the world to source as reference into how to implement accident contingency plans for this type of infrastructure. they are just lazy, cheap, draconian and stuck backwards. only legislation can force them to move forward an inch since they know they have everyone by their balls.

 

[Bojaxs]

typical CN/CP stuck in their 1950s mentalities... they are not pioneers in electrified freight... they have the rest of the world to source as reference into how to implement accident contingency plans for this type of infrastructure. they are just lazy, cheap, draconian and stuck backwards. only legislation can force them to move forward an inch since they know they have everyone by their balls.

No, it's because they have to answer to share holders who demand profits.

If modifying their lines to electric made economic sense, they would have done it already.

 

[crs1026]

typical CN/CP stuck in their 1950s mentalities... they are not pioneers in electrified freight... they have the rest of the world to source as reference into how to implement accident contingency plans for this type of infrastructure. they are just lazy, cheap, draconian and stuck backwards. only legislation can force them to move forward an inch since they know they have everyone by their balls.

None of that, actually.

Why would they allow a third party to string wires which the third party has chosen and which may not match whatever technology or specs that they may eventually land on, especially considering how much standardization the North American rail network demands.

Worst case the third party tenant would be contractually obligated to remove or alter said wires if the industry goes VHS after ML chooses Beta.

And then it creates precedent for accommodating demands from VIA, Exo, West Coast express, or whomever, who may have their own specs or choices.

And why would they then have to develop operating and maintenance procedures and methods, satisfy regulators and unions. Train their own personnell plus at minimum first reaponders and potentially contractors….. when there is absolutely no benefit to their own customers stakeholders and shareholders.

Personally I am convinced that electrificAtion is inevitable on every major railway in North america, because the opportunity cost of not reclaiming braking energy is growing. Clearly the railways are waiting to see if technologies can emerge - some combination of battery and hydrogen perhaps - that removes the need to invest in thousands of miles of OCS and supply feeds. Good on them.

Asking them to drop in a custom system for ML is really spitting into the wind.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

No, it's because they have to answer to share holders who demand profits.

If modifying their lines to electric made economic sense, they would have done it already.

it does make economic sense since the world is going electric, but they know they have to invest heavily to do so. obviously they will shape their argument to suit the status quo.
they would rather short term gains and profits over long term investment. besides they dont need to even use it, its really just procedure that they need to modernise.
thats an even worse excuse since its virtually pennies to update paperwork essentially. how much more drastically significant would it be if there was a derailment that took out a few poles? either case theyre closing that track.
in fact it brings an even more sinister reality in which their infrastructure is in poor shape to begin with since there are so many derailments yearly. if they electrify they will also need to rehab and update their rail which they obviously would
want to avoid at all costs since they are so penny pinching. .

 

[Bojaxs]

it does make economic sense since the world is going electric, but they know they have to invest heavily to do so. obviously they will shape their argument to suit the status quo.
they would rather short term gains and profits over long term investment. besides they dont need to even use it, its really just procedure that they need to modernise.
thats an even worse excuse since its virtually pennies to update paperwork essentially. how much more drastically significant would it be if there was a derailment that took out a few poles? either case theyre closing that track.
in fact it brings an even more sinister reality in which their infrastructure is in poor shape to begin with since there are so many derailments yearly. if they electrify they will also need to rehab and update their rail which they obviously would
want to avoid at all costs since they are so penny pinching. .

Why would share holders support a proposal that would eat into profits? There's a lot of people who have heavily invested their life savings into the freight railroads. Counting on them to support their retirement. The idea that they would support a campaign to spend billions to electrify the lines simply as a "feel good" gesture is not even a consideration. These investors are not willing to take that risk.
The freight rail companies have some of the best accountants in the world working for them. I have no doubt CN & CP have crunched the numbers on electrifying their lines, and in the end, the numbers still didn't add up. If you're so convinced that there is a business case for electrifying freight lines, then I would suggest you hand CN or CP your resume.