General railway discussions

[Urban Sky]

No clue. Population isn't the determinant - travel and commuting patterns are. It's been quite a few years since I spent anytime around Ottawa but got the sense that a lot of 'the burbs' are still within the (geographically very large) city, with Arnprior and Carleton Place picking up as well. Pembroke is still 150 km away.

To add pax rail to an existing line is one thing. To re-lay a line is quite another. It becomes a little more complicated since the former CN route crosses into Quebec then back out.

To put things into perspective, Pembrooke has a CA population of 24k, which places it between Cobourg (21k) and Brockville (31k), amongst the cities it serves in the Corridor. VIA terminates trains at neither station (the smallest Corridor terminus city is Sarnia with only a single daily train, despite its population of 98k and thus four times that of Pembrooke) and doesn’t even bother to let all its trains passing through these cities stop there…

 

[micheal_can]

I'm not sure what I don't get; the line of logic or the grammar. The ROW to Pembroke is no longer there. Period. This negates any kind of trial run of anything.

Whether something, whatever that is, "would have been worth it" is now irrelevant. Other than some kind of historical analysis, I'm missing the point of looking at something "how it was before it was ripped up.

The ROW is mainly still there, just not usable in its current state.
To look at the past is more along the lines of whether it was a missed opportunity.
To look at the future is to ask at what point it becomes worth relaying the tracks and other infrastructure.

Whether it be GO or some sort of other regional transit agency, something should be started with buses. Once that is done, then the viability of relaying tracks anywhere or sticking a station on existing lines can be assessed.

 

[lenaitch]

The ROW is mainly still there, just not usable in its current state.
To look at the past is more along the lines of whether it was a missed opportunity.
To look at the future is to ask at what point it becomes worth relaying the tracks and other infrastructure.

Whether it be GO or some sort of other regional transit agency, something should be started with buses. Once that is done, then the viability of relaying tracks anywhere or sticking a station on existing lines can be assessed.

Even with a bus service, you still need data to determine if it viable. What would the potential ridership be? If virtually nobody is commuting between Pembroke and Ottawa, what's the point?

 

[just east of the creek]

Just to be perfectly clear, in my postings about reestablishing rail service in parts of the Ottawa Vally, I used the words ‘in my fantasy world’. And so it is at this point in time.

But the ROW does exist, and in most places outside of Ottawa and parts of Pembroke, unencumbered by encroaching building. It does see much snowmobile, atv, and cycle action. Again, in my fantasy world, there may be areas where a new line bypassing the center of some areas, would be surveyed. Like Hwy 413 and the Bradford cash dump, the province would have no issues expropriating land for these new routes. And the Canadian Forces would once again have a useful tool to transport volumes of equipment long distances.

So when I take CPKC private and start applying that quarterly dividend amount ( x 900 million plus shares) , you may begin to see some of these moves and others begin to happen through the CPKC network. But holding your breath in anticipation is not a good idea, the current portfolio holdings have a ways to go yet ……

 

[micheal_can]

Even with a bus service, you still need data to determine if it viable. What would the potential ridership be? If virtually nobody is commuting between Pembroke and Ottawa, what's the point?

https://www.library.mto.gov.on.ca/SydneyPLUS/TechPubs/Theme.aspx?r=702797&f=files%2fProvincial+Highways+Traffic+Volumes+2019+AADT+Only.pdf&m=resource

I would start with looking at the AADT, and specifically look east and west of Pembroke

RENFREW CTY NIPISSING DIST BDY MATTAWA E LTS DORION ST 23.1 2900
That is the lowest one.

RENFREW RD 42 FOREST LEA RD RENFREW RD 26 DORAN RD. 3.0 9150
This is the highest one near Pembroke.

We can assume 6250 are added to the thru traffic. If a bus holds 80 people, a service with 1 bus to start might be all that is needed.

 

[lenaitch]

Just to be perfectly clear, in my postings about reestablishing rail service in parts of the Ottawa Vally, I used the words ‘in my fantasy world’. And so it is at this point in time.

But the ROW does exist, and in most places outside of Ottawa and parts of Pembroke, unencumbered by encroaching building. It does see much snowmobile, atv, and cycle action. Again, in my fantasy world, there may be areas where a new line bypassing the center of some areas, would be surveyed. Like Hwy 413 and the Bradford cash dump, the province would have no issues expropriating land for these new routes. And the Canadian Forces would once again have a useful tool to transport volumes of equipment long distances.

So when I take CPKC private and start applying that quarterly dividend amount ( x 900 million plus shares) , you may begin to see some of these moves and others begin to happen through the CPKC network. But holding your breath in anticipation is not a good idea, the current portfolio holdings have a ways to go yet ……

Jeez. I hope you're not fronting for a private equity firm. They'll just bleed the assets. It would be like the railway version of Tim's. One question you (as head honcho of said pile-o-dough/debt company) would want to ask yourself is what would the re-layed Ottawa Valley route do for your bottom line that the current routing doesn't. That's why CP dumped it in the first place. Keep in mind that a lot of your (CPKC) tonnage from out west comes through the US and into southern Ontario.

One problem for the former CP Ottawa Valley ROW in terms of commuter service to Ottawa, is it didn't go to Ottawa; it went to Smiths Falls. The former CN ROW went to Ottawa.

But we admire your spunk.

 

[dowlingm]

I always figured that a reinstated route would not follow a single historical route but some form of hybrid with parts of the Renfrew, Beachburg and Chalk River Subdivision alignments. The question would be how to negotiate a path through or more likely skirting areas of Arnprior, Renfrew and Pembroke, on basis that it would be unlikely for a route to resurface without a commuter rail basis beyond any putative interregional or freight traffic, while at the same time community pushback from the reappearance of crossing gates/heavy rail vehicles in downtowns might be seen as unreasonable.

As noted above, having rail access to Petawawa could also help with moving military equipment by rail but that only helps if the route exists in the desired direction (e.g. towards Mattawa for exercises out west) and if the required rolling stock exists and the alignment can take sufficient axle weights at all points. It seems more of a cherry on top thing than a reason to do it.

What is noted as a concern around many CF facilities is the high cost of/low supply of housing - not sure if that is an issue in Petawawa / Pembroke, but if so perhaps a reinstatement of a rail line with passenger might draw interest in adding some additional residential capacity to that region.

 

[roger1818]

One problem for the former CP Ottawa Valley ROW in terms of commuter service to Ottawa, is it didn't go to Ottawa; it went to Smiths Falls. The former CN ROW went to Ottawa.

Even then, the other problem is that even the former CN ROW didn't go downtown. Imagine if all the tracks to Union Station were torn up in the 60's, so all GO trains terminated at the former North Toronto station, forcing most riders to transfer onto the Young subway line at Summerhill.

I do feel that Metrolinx should be required take over responsibility for the hodgepodge of exurban commuter bus lines in Ottawa (some of which were shut down for COVID and are slow to come back). Unfortunately that is currently beyond their mandate of serving only the GTHA (its sad that a provincial agency has such a narrow focus, but very typical with the politicians in Toronto being very myopic).

Having said that, never say never, but I can't see commuter rail being viable in Ottawa for a long, long time.

 

[Fritter]

I do feel that Metrolinx should be required take over responsibility for the hodgepodge of exurban commuter bus lines in Ottawa

Do you really believe Metrolinx would be the adult in the room making proper decisions about these routes?

 

[micheal_can]

Jeez. I hope you're not fronting for a private equity firm. They'll just bleed the assets. It would be like the railway version of Tim's. One question you (as head honcho of said pile-o-dough/debt company) would want to ask yourself is what would the re-layed Ottawa Valley route do for your bottom line that the current routing doesn't. That's why CP dumped it in the first place. Keep in mind that a lot of your (CPKC) tonnage from out west comes through the US and into southern Ontario.

One problem for the former CP Ottawa Valley ROW in terms of commuter service to Ottawa, is it didn't go to Ottawa; it went to Smiths Falls. The former CN ROW went to Ottawa.

But we admire your spunk.

It fooled me too. I thought it did, but it seems that it decided to head south after Arnprior.
So,lets say this was not reactivated by CP or CN, but one of the smaller companies. And lets say that the city/province/federal governments were paying for that reactivation, then the best solution is not to pick one singular subdivision, but take a look at all the abandoned ones in the Ottawa Valley and piece them together to form a new singular route.


Does anyone have a map of those old routes showing the old owners and the subdivision names?

Even then, the other problem is that even the former CN ROW didn't go downtown. Imagine if all the tracks to Union Station were torn up in the 60's, so all GO trains terminated at the former North Toronto station, forcing most riders to transfer onto the Young subway line at Summerhill.

I do feel that Metrolinx should be required take over responsibility for the hodgepodge of exurban commuter bus lines in Ottawa (some of which were shut down for COVID and are slow to come back). Unfortunately that is currently beyond their mandate of serving only the GTHA (its sad that a provincial agency has such a narrow focus, but very typical with the politicians in Toronto being very myopic).

Having said that, never say never, but I can't see commuter rail being viable in Ottawa for a long, long time.

One option would be a tunnel to the old Union station which could be connected to the Confederation Line. Yes,it would be expensive, but it may be worth it sometime into the future.

 

[lenaitch]

I always figured that a reinstated route would not follow a single historical route but some form of hybrid with parts of the Renfrew, Beachburg and Chalk River Subdivision alignments. The question would be how to negotiate a path through or more likely skirting areas of Arnprior, Renfrew and Pembroke, on basis that it would be unlikely for a route to resurface without a commuter rail basis beyond any putative interregional or freight traffic, while at the same time community pushback from the reappearance of crossing gates/heavy rail vehicles in downtowns might be seen as unreasonable.

As noted above, having rail access to Petawawa could also help with moving military equipment by rail but that only helps if the route exists in the desired direction (e.g. towards Mattawa for exercises out west) and if the required rolling stock exists and the alignment can take sufficient axle weights at all points. It seems more of a cherry on top thing than a reason to do it.

What is noted as a concern around many CF facilities is the high cost of/low supply of housing - not sure if that is an issue in Petawawa / Pembroke, but if so perhaps a reinstatement of a rail line with passenger might draw interest in adding some additional residential capacity to that region.

It depends on what is being discussed. Some are talking about pax/commuter rail from Pembroke to Ottawa. In that regard, the former CP and CN routes are only proximate at Pembroke. South of that they diverge significantly. At some magic point, trying to knit together a bunch of abandoned (some very long abandoned) rights-of-way becomes greenfielding. Even north/west of Pembroke, the lines diverge.

In terms of restored through service in the Ottawa Valley, the lack of need or freight service, including military movements, has already been demonstrated by the lines being abandoned. Without freight revenue, they/it would be a passenger route and I defy anybody to demonstrate how it would be financially feasible, even with public money. In all of the GO network, other than double tracking, how much virgin track have they laid? LSE? A doodlebug service between Pembroke and Ottawa hardly compares.

Off topic but CF retention and recruit issues has multiple facets; housing costs in some locations being one. Another is spousal employment. The logic that transportation expansion (rail, road, etc.) and increased housing demand being a path to reduced hosing prices goes against just about everything history has shown.

I do feel that Metrolinx should be required take over responsibility for the hodgepodge of exurban commuter bus lines in Ottawa (some of which were shut down for COVID and are slow to come back). Unfortunately that is currently beyond their mandate of serving only the GTHA (its sad that a provincial agency has such a narrow focus, but very typical with the politicians in Toronto being very myopic).

Taking over private, for-profit bus companies would be a public policy decision. Actually, with deregulation, the government could simply start operating a bus line and just drive them out of business (that'll be good for votes).

I don't think it should surprise anyone that GO/Metrolinx is mandated to serve the GTA/GTHA/GGHA. If some government had proposed to fund a pan-provincial transit authority in 1967 they would have been laughed out of office. As an actual service provided, not just a policy or regulatory body, what should its bounds be? Maybe they should venture into Ottawa (it seems they couldn't do worse than the city) but I'm not sure if a single agency consisting of isolated service pockets is particularly efficient. Given the massive size of Ottawa, how much of the transit in the area is inter-jurisdictional.

 

[just east of the creek]

On my way into Toronto, heading westbound on the 401, around 7:30, I happened to notice an unusual CN train. Possibly 6 to 8 passenger cars, including a dome car. The topsides were painted white, the middle area of the cars, centered around the windows, were a maroon(?) colour with the CN logo in black. The loco was also masked by trees , but I had the impression it was not a standard paint job. And everything looked pristine. Not sure it was moving, or waiting for a signal. Heading westbound as well presumably. No photos as I was on the 401 and the train was initially masked by trees. This would have been the Liverpool Road area. Some sort of track measurement? And if so, why the down car?

 

[Bordercollie]

On my way into Toronto, heading westbound on the 401, around 7:30, I happened to notice an unusual CN train. Possibly 6 to 8 passenger cars, including a dome car. The topsides were painted white, the middle area of the cars, centered around the windows, were a maroon(?) colour with the CN logo in black. The loco was also masked by trees , but I had the impression it was not a standard paint job. And everything looked pristine. Not sure it was moving, or waiting for a signal. Heading westbound as well presumably. No photos as I was on the 401 and the train was initially masked by trees. This would have been the Liverpool Road area. Some sort of track measurement? And if so, why the down car?

CN business train. https://images.app.goo.gl/ZcUTX3GpziFxBrLR7

 

[just east of the creek]

Jeez. I hope you're not fronting for a private equity firm. They'll just bleed the assets. It would be like the railway version of Tim's. One question you (as head honcho of said pile-o-dough/debt company) would want to ask yourself is what would the re-layed Ottawa Valley route do for your bottom line that the current routing doesn't. That's why CP dumped it in the first place. Keep in mind that a lot of your (CPKC) tonnage from out west comes through the US and into southern Ontario.

One problem for the former CP Ottawa Valley ROW in terms of commuter service to Ottawa, is it didn't go to Ottawa; it went to Smiths Falls. The former CN ROW went to Ottawa.

But we admire your spunk.

You are right about Smiths Falls, and that one escaped me at the time. I should know better, I had a grandparent who was a section foreman out of Smith Falls for quite some time. I guess I’ll need to assume some former CN ROW into the Ottawa area, or just expropriate.

This project would have to go hand in hand with projects for handling cargo out of Vancouver, Montreal and St Johns - substantial increases in cargo are anticipated,…..but that’s another thread I think.

However, as fun as all of this is, tomorrow I will contain myself with the task of organizing a couple of containers for loading on the South Shore near Montreal and movement to Vancouver for export.

Thanks for the input….my not yet formed board of directors will be looking for qualified and interested applicants?

 

[just east of the creek]

CN business train. https://images.app.goo.gl/ZcUTX3GpziFxBrLR7

That is it. I understood some cars existed, but had never seen . Striking. Perhaps they too were waiting for Metrolynx to let them into the city.