the lemur
Senior Member
Power-assisted bikes are great for people who aren't able to propel conventional bikes, but let's not kid ourselves about their environmental impact. Conventional bikes are greener and within reach for many more people.
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General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)
- Thread starter rp07
- Start date
Power-assisted bikes are great for people who aren't able to propel conventional bikes, but let's not kid ourselves about their environmental impact. Conventional bikes are greener and within reach for many more people.
Rock
Banned
Said earlier in this thread:
[qupte] In the Netherlands for an example, in 2012 their "Fietsberaad" reported there were now one million electric bicycles on THEIR roads... seen here:
http://www.fietsberaad.nl/index.cfm?...ion+e-cyclists
And in April last year, the European Cyclists' Federation reported "Car sales down, bike sales up: Two new bikes are sold for every car in Europe", online here:
http://www.ecf.com/news/car-sales-do...car-in-europe/
And by one report (now out, from 2011), "The annual production of electric bicycles in China has grown from 58,000 in 1998 to 27 million in 2010. According to the Chinese National Statistics Bureau, in 2006, China has 450 million bicycles and in 2009, China has over 100 million ebikes."[/quote]
Huh! I wonder what one might "read into" that information...
[qupte] In the Netherlands for an example, in 2012 their "Fietsberaad" reported there were now one million electric bicycles on THEIR roads... seen here:
http://www.fietsberaad.nl/index.cfm?...ion+e-cyclists
And in April last year, the European Cyclists' Federation reported "Car sales down, bike sales up: Two new bikes are sold for every car in Europe", online here:
http://www.ecf.com/news/car-sales-do...car-in-europe/
And by one report (now out, from 2011), "The annual production of electric bicycles in China has grown from 58,000 in 1998 to 27 million in 2010. According to the Chinese National Statistics Bureau, in 2006, China has 450 million bicycles and in 2009, China has over 100 million ebikes."[/quote]
Huh! I wonder what one might "read into" that information...
the lemur
Senior Member
Huh! I wonder what one might "read into" that information...[/QUOTE]
... That car sales are on a general downward trend? That both bikes and e-bikes are becoming more popular, but the former still outnumber the latter?
I'm growing a little tired of these hectoring e-bike e-vangelists who rail against both motor vehicles AND conventional bikes: 'Cars stink, maaan! Drivers are fat! And regular bikes are outmoded and ridden by able-bodied health fascists!'. Preaching to their own group of converts.
Rock
Banned
"Power-assisted bikes are great for people who aren't able to propel conventional bikes"
Perhaps some folks are getting older? I know some young folks expect they (their "human" bodies) will live forever. Despite overwhelming evidence all around them. (Hmmm... sounds sorta familiar, in this current context/thread.)
" but let's not kid ourselves about their environmental impact. Conventional bikes are greener and within reach for many more people. "
"Greener"??? So, do six+ (and growing) humans plus other animals all... "poop"... into Lake Ontario? Do some folks etc in Toronto not enjoy eating foods shipped by airplane, ship, railway, trucks, etc. perhaps from half way around the world? So, if one adds green coloured dye to their food diet, might their "waste food" appear "greener" perhaps?
BTW. I stumbled upon battery "electric" traction over ten years ago. ... as a "non-smelly" form of transportation versus FOSSIL fuels? I have read extensively about the history of transportation (mostly on land, and mostly since human kind first gave up using other animals to pull/push other vehicles), studied extensively and written extensively and collected images about same. My years of instruction post-high school include accounting, but before that marketing, and before that electrical engineering. Even in high school I took a year of physics and chemistry courses, equivalent to first year university.
My "problem" perhaps? I am too interested in watching and enquiring about the "world" I see around me. And the view currently in NOT PRETTY.
Perhaps some folks are getting older? I know some young folks expect they (their "human" bodies) will live forever. Despite overwhelming evidence all around them. (Hmmm... sounds sorta familiar, in this current context/thread.)
" but let's not kid ourselves about their environmental impact. Conventional bikes are greener and within reach for many more people. "
"Greener"??? So, do six+ (and growing) humans plus other animals all... "poop"... into Lake Ontario? Do some folks etc in Toronto not enjoy eating foods shipped by airplane, ship, railway, trucks, etc. perhaps from half way around the world? So, if one adds green coloured dye to their food diet, might their "waste food" appear "greener" perhaps?
BTW. I stumbled upon battery "electric" traction over ten years ago. ... as a "non-smelly" form of transportation versus FOSSIL fuels? I have read extensively about the history of transportation (mostly on land, and mostly since human kind first gave up using other animals to pull/push other vehicles), studied extensively and written extensively and collected images about same. My years of instruction post-high school include accounting, but before that marketing, and before that electrical engineering. Even in high school I took a year of physics and chemistry courses, equivalent to first year university.
My "problem" perhaps? I am too interested in watching and enquiring about the "world" I see around me. And the view currently in NOT PRETTY.
Rock
Banned
"hectoring e-bike e-vangelists"... Hehe... Much easier to attack/label/pigeonhole some others. Than to rebut that which they say. How about *attacking* their message instead? Is there ANYTHING that I have written about, above, in this thread??? ANYTHING AT ALL??? (Please provide links to reputable "third parties", as I have tried to do.)
the lemur
Senior Member
Using a bike that involves physical activity rather than relying (partly) on a power assist makes for better health in general.
" but let's not kid ourselves about their environmental impact. Conventional bikes are greener and within reach for many more people. "
I have no real idea of what you're trying to say there. My point was that e-bikes are not as environmentally sound as they seem, particularly when it comes to disposing of the batteries and the energy and petroleum products that go into their manufacture.
Your observations, such as they are, gain nothing from your ad hominems about drivers and others who have not seen the e-bike light.
Rock
Banned
"the former still outnumber the latter?"
HA HA! My collection of antique horse brasses outnumbers your collection!
(I must apologize to you. So far your "concerns" may appear as flacid as a body part of the male animal... to others of course.)
HA HA! My collection of antique horse brasses outnumbers your collection!
(I must apologize to you. So far your "concerns" may appear as flacid as a body part of the male animal... to others of course.)
the lemur
Senior Member
I am attacking your message. It's not in dispute that e-bike sales are up. So what? What are you adding to the discussion by implying that people who, unlike you, have not embraced e-bikes (because they continue to drive and/or ride conventional bikes) are lame, fat and more interested in last night's hockey game? What's the point of adding that cars stink and you're better than others for having given up on them?
the lemur
Senior Member
You think there are actually more e-bikes on the world's roads than conventional bikes then?
Rock
Banned
"Using a bike that involves physical activity rather than relying (partly) on a power assist makes for better health in general."
So does kicking a soccer ball, or tossing the caber, etc., etc., etc. Some might question the attention of some human animals, when they arrive for work in the morning, ready for a "snack" or a "nap", or both.
"I have no real idea of what you're trying to say there."
Read what I wrote again (perhaps more slowly, if necessary).
"My point was that e-bikes are not as environmentally sound as they seem, particularly when it comes to disposing of the batteries and the energy and petroleum products that go into their manufacture."
So now you are advocating for no more takeout food containers??? No more modern "plastics" (that may or may not be recycled)? No more plastic lids on any yummy Timmies coffees???
Easy solution re the lithium battery. They (the materials used in their manufacture) CAN be recycled. Oh, and the total lithium content of seawater is estimated as 230 *billion tonnes* alone.
"Your observations, such as they are, gain nothing from your ad hominems about drivers and others who have not seen the e-bike light."
Ah hominem??? (Sorry, I had no clue I was corresponding with a Greek!)
One English-language definition "A claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Hehe... You crazy Greeks. I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry!
So does kicking a soccer ball, or tossing the caber, etc., etc., etc. Some might question the attention of some human animals, when they arrive for work in the morning, ready for a "snack" or a "nap", or both.
"I have no real idea of what you're trying to say there."
Read what I wrote again (perhaps more slowly, if necessary).
"My point was that e-bikes are not as environmentally sound as they seem, particularly when it comes to disposing of the batteries and the energy and petroleum products that go into their manufacture."
So now you are advocating for no more takeout food containers??? No more modern "plastics" (that may or may not be recycled)? No more plastic lids on any yummy Timmies coffees???
Easy solution re the lithium battery. They (the materials used in their manufacture) CAN be recycled. Oh, and the total lithium content of seawater is estimated as 230 *billion tonnes* alone.
"Your observations, such as they are, gain nothing from your ad hominems about drivers and others who have not seen the e-bike light."
Ah hominem??? (Sorry, I had no clue I was corresponding with a Greek!)
One English-language definition "A claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Hehe... You crazy Greeks. I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry!
the lemur
Senior Member
You're not funny, you make no sense, you put words in others' mouths (I said nothing about takeout containers).
You're either a crank or you've suffered a head injury of some sort. Blocking you.
Rock
Banned
"I am attacking your message."
Yet there is not much I have said that has not already been said by others? (Perhaps your Dutch/Chinese/etc. language skills are as lousy as mine.)
"It's not in dispute that e-bike sales are up."
"UP"??? Perhaps sales have "exploded" elsewhere in the world is too "scary" a word.
"So what? What are you adding to the discussion by implying that people who, unlike you, have not embraced e-bikes (because they continue to drive and/or ride conventional bikes) are lame, fat and more interested in last night's hockey game?"
No. But perhaps might like getting around town faster, while saving TONS of money at the same time. Oh, and perhaps the "best" built-in "feature" of the electric bicycle? Operating (riding) such a device shifts some of the RISK back to the vehicle operator. (You want to make the automobile "safer"? Just remove the seat belts, "crush zones" and "air bags". This might make the automobile safer... for everyone else.
"What's the point of adding that cars stink and you're better than others for having given up on them?"
Two things. One) Please go and stick your nose up a gasoline/diesel-powered vehicle while the engine is operating. Better give it some time... say, 20 minutes. (And please report back here on the results of the experiment!)
And two) I hope never to hit/run over/kill any others, especially any of your children. Or my own children. Actually, it's a long list (of the damage I hope not to inflict on others.)
I DON'T think I am ANY "better" than others, but other humans have told me I am perhaps "brighter" than 95% of the rest of the human species (which I admit isn't saying much).
Yet there is not much I have said that has not already been said by others? (Perhaps your Dutch/Chinese/etc. language skills are as lousy as mine.)
"It's not in dispute that e-bike sales are up."
"UP"??? Perhaps sales have "exploded" elsewhere in the world is too "scary" a word.
"So what? What are you adding to the discussion by implying that people who, unlike you, have not embraced e-bikes (because they continue to drive and/or ride conventional bikes) are lame, fat and more interested in last night's hockey game?"
No. But perhaps might like getting around town faster, while saving TONS of money at the same time. Oh, and perhaps the "best" built-in "feature" of the electric bicycle? Operating (riding) such a device shifts some of the RISK back to the vehicle operator. (You want to make the automobile "safer"? Just remove the seat belts, "crush zones" and "air bags". This might make the automobile safer... for everyone else.
"What's the point of adding that cars stink and you're better than others for having given up on them?"
Two things. One) Please go and stick your nose up a gasoline/diesel-powered vehicle while the engine is operating. Better give it some time... say, 20 minutes. (And please report back here on the results of the experiment!)
And two) I hope never to hit/run over/kill any others, especially any of your children. Or my own children. Actually, it's a long list (of the damage I hope not to inflict on others.)
I DON'T think I am ANY "better" than others, but other humans have told me I am perhaps "brighter" than 95% of the rest of the human species (which I admit isn't saying much).
Rock
Banned
Apparently what I have written may have been "too disturbing" for some. Or I was interrupting the hockey game, or something. Sorry!
the lemur
Senior Member
Up, exploded, whatever. Who cares.
The added speed of an e-bike is immaterial to me and the shifting of the risk back to the operator applies just as well to regular bikes.
And now you're telling me to go poison myself with CO. Nice.
Rock
Banned
"Up, exploded, whatever. Who cares."
It may be that others in Toronto are interested in what has happened in the world.
"The added speed of an e-bike is immaterial to me"
For the record, I don't believe that in this thread anywhere have I mentioned the revelant speeds of various vehicles (except for those "trapped" in Toronto "traffic"?)
I suspect most humans (like me) do like "speed", but like jumping off a cliff, it is only the sudden stop at the bottom that is... "awkward"... for most. But just for the record, I do believe that travelling more slowly produces fewer accidents and injuries.
"and the shifting of the risk back to the operator applies just as well to regular bikes."
EXACTLY. And for the electric bicycle as well.
"And now you're telling me to go poison myself with CO. Nice."
Hey! It's just an EXPERIMENT! (But you used the word "poison"??? Sounds scary to me. You're not trying to frighten people ARE YOU?)
It may be that others in Toronto are interested in what has happened in the world.
"The added speed of an e-bike is immaterial to me"
For the record, I don't believe that in this thread anywhere have I mentioned the revelant speeds of various vehicles (except for those "trapped" in Toronto "traffic"?)
I suspect most humans (like me) do like "speed", but like jumping off a cliff, it is only the sudden stop at the bottom that is... "awkward"... for most. But just for the record, I do believe that travelling more slowly produces fewer accidents and injuries.
"and the shifting of the risk back to the operator applies just as well to regular bikes."
EXACTLY. And for the electric bicycle as well.
"And now you're telling me to go poison myself with CO. Nice."
Hey! It's just an EXPERIMENT! (But you used the word "poison"??? Sounds scary to me. You're not trying to frighten people ARE YOU?)