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The Urban Jungle
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General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

andrewpmk said:
I am concerned about safety. The statistics clearly show that biking is far more dangerous than other methods of transportation. I wouldn't exactly call driving a car safe but it is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a bike. I think that most people in Toronto realize this (that's why the percentage of people who ride bikes to work is about 2% and hasn't changed very much). Bicycles are a rare sight in most areas of Toronto outside downtown and anytime in the winter or when it is raining. There are obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular: the bike share system in Toronto has flopped like bike share systems have everywhere because hardly anyone uses it, and the bike racks that TTC and various other transit systems have installed on buses are rarely used. However, city council is incompetent and the bike lobby has far too much political power in Toronto. I wish city council would spend money on real methods of transportation like more subway lines but that costs far more money than installing some white paint and some "bike lane" signs. Taking the subway is by far the safest method of transportation and bicycling is among the most dangerous.
Click to expand...

This is one of the more poorly constructed arguments I've seen in some time. There's not one shred of convincing logic employed and the assumptions that (attempt to) form the foundation are just bizarre. To my eye, it doesn't seem maliciously composed, so I don't think there's much use in being mean about it (and I've actually been mostly impressed with the restraint displayed in responses thereto), but it does genuinely make me worry about the future of the city (these are the positions upon which people form their resolve to vote for our councillors?).

Any sentient being could take a little time and easily deconstruct literally every sentence of the paragraph above, but just taking the easiest ones for now (because blood pressure).
> "There are obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular." A baseless assertion that also happens to be incorrect; both total trips by bike and bike as a share of total transportation when compared against cars have consistently increased in Toronto.
> "The bike share system in Toronto has flopped like bike share systems have everywhere because hardly anyone uses it." The Toronto bike share just announced it is doubling its capacity as a result of demand, which follows trends in many other cities where ridership has also pushed past previously existing capacity, forcing cities to expand the programs.
> "The bike lobby has far too much political power in Toronto." Of similarly composed cities, Toronto has one of the smallest networks of bicycle infrastructure; the bike lobby is rendered largely impotent by a Byzantine Council committee structure (and by the composition of Council itself). The bike lobby is struggling mightily to get a 2-km pilot project passed, a project that should be a shoe-in by any reasonable calculus.

And I was going to continue, but re-reading that paragraph again to assess the next chosen object of deconstruction got me too mad.

Very simply, if a well used and growing mode of transportation—one that also happens to carry with it numerous and sizeable ancillary benefits related to personal and public health, the environment, congestion, tourism, et al—is unsafe, FIX IT. And, in this case, fixing it would mean a massive expansion of protected cycle infrastructure. There are mountains of data from cities all over the world that prove that protected cycle infrastructure greatly reduces the danger, which should be about the most obvious assertions anyone ever makes.

This is a monumentally silly debate.
 
andrewpmk said:
I am concerned about safety. The statistics clearly show that biking is far more dangerous than other methods of transportation. I wouldn't exactly call driving a car safe but it is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a bike. I think that most people in Toronto realize this (that's why the percentage of people who ride bikes to work is about 2% and hasn't changed very much). Bicycles are a rare sight in most areas of Toronto outside downtown and anytime in the winter or when it is raining. There are obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular: the bike share system in Toronto has flopped like bike share systems have everywhere because hardly anyone uses it, and the bike racks that TTC and various other transit systems have installed on buses are rarely used. However, city council is incompetent and the bike lobby has far too much political power in Toronto. I wish city council would spend money on real methods of transportation like more subway lines but that costs far more money than installing some white paint and some "bike lane" signs. Taking the subway is by far the safest method of transportation and bicycling is among the most dangerous.
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So much of this is pure conjecture or fabrication. Just a lot of silliness not worth replying to.
 
tiffer24 said:
Shopping is extremely dangerous. It seems like the only places where it actually is safe to shop are places where cars are not allowed, like malls and big box stores. You can see a handful of shopping accidents in those areas but not very many. The city should not be encouraging people to shop on busy roads (with or without vehicle traffic) where it is extremely dangerous. :rolleyes:
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What about the shootings that happen inside and outside of shopping malls? Car collisions, shootings, just about anything bad can happen anywhere. Even a meteor.

 
andrewpmk said:
I am concerned about safety. The statistics clearly show that biking is far more dangerous than other methods of transportation. I wouldn't exactly call driving a car safe but it is nowhere near as dangerous as riding a bike. I think that most people in Toronto realize this (that's why the percentage of people who ride bikes to work is about 2% and hasn't changed very much). Bicycles are a rare sight in most areas of Toronto outside downtown and anytime in the winter or when it is raining. There are obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular: the bike share system in Toronto has flopped like bike share systems have everywhere because hardly anyone uses it, and the bike racks that TTC and various other transit systems have installed on buses are rarely used. However, city council is incompetent and the bike lobby has far too much political power in Toronto. I wish city council would spend money on real methods of transportation like more subway lines but that costs far more money than installing some white paint and some "bike lane" signs. Taking the subway is by far the safest method of transportation and bicycling is among the most dangerous.
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I can only chuckle now at this line of "reasoning". His concerns about "safety" are laughable. I guess anderwpmk had better now start lobbying for only subway transportation and no cars in the city, since cars are dangerous too and the subway is safest?

And his "obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular" might be obvious to him, if he lives in the inner or outer burbs and chooses not to notice bikes. So I guess he is also advocating for bike lanes in the downtown if he feels that's where so many cyclists are?

I'm still wondering what on earth has brought him to these irrational "conclusions". I can only guess he is either deeply scarred by some experience in his life, or he is simply a pro-car lobbyist.

I am posting this reply not for andrewpmk's benefit, but for anyone else who needs to see how bull of crap his "arguments" are. Obviously there is no point addressing him directly.
 
West End Boy said:
I can only chuckle now at this line of "reasoning". His concerns about "safety" are laughable. I guess anderwpmk had better now start lobbying for only subway transportation and no cars in the city, since cars are dangerous too and the subway is safest?

And his "obvious signs that bicycling is not very popular" might be obvious to him, if he lives in the inner or outer burbs and chooses not to notice bikes. So I guess he is also advocating for bike lanes in the downtown if he feels that's where so many cyclists are?

I'm still wondering what on earth has brought him to these irrational "conclusions". I can only guess he is either deeply scarred by some experience in his life, or he is simply a pro-car lobbyist.

I am posting this reply not for andrewpmk's benefit, but for anyone else who needs to see how bull of crap his "arguments" are. Obviously there is no point addressing him directly.
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I think that a lot of people share the same views as me and do not support bike lanes, but this view is not popular on UrbanToronto. If you look at the comments in various CBC articles on Bloor bike lanes I see a lot of anti-bike commenters. Many other people share the view that riding bikes in Toronto is dangerous.

The 2016 census is being conducted right now so we will see fairly soon how many people ride bikes to work. The long form census is mandatory now which means the data will be higher quality. It was about 2% in 2011 but it varies a great deal by area (it is higher downtown, and much lower everywhere else, and it is much lower in the 905). My guess is that this number has stayed about the same, judging from how many people I see riding bikes in Toronto. From what I can tell, bicyclists are a very small minority of the population with a disproportionate amount of power on city council. Also I hardly ever see anyone using the bike-sharing system downtown, and I hardly ever see anyone using the bike racks on TTC buses.

I wish that the city would provide updated data on bike accidents that reflects bike lanes on Richmond/Adelaide, etc. That would see whether these separated bike lanes are genuinely safer or not. Even if these separated bike lanes are slightly safer, an increased number of bikes might offset that. The Toronto Public Health report was done last year and is somewhat outdated now.
 
Statistics were given in city council today. From the downtown wards that encompass the Bloor St. pilot, over 10% cycle regularly.

I see people using the bike share system every time I am out and about. Maybe you should open your eyes a little wider.

The bike racks on the TTC were not in use for a while because of a possible safety issue with their structure. There have been a number of bike thefts from those racks (now that they are back in service), so I for one would be very careful about using them.

And finally ... Georgio, is that you?
 
tiffer24 said:
And the bike lane hysteria at council continues today...

BenSpurr11:34am via Twitter Web Client
Mammoliti: "The backup of cars will be ridiculous."

moore_oliver11:33am via Twitter Web Client
Mammoliti: "The war on car continues, and that's what this is about. It's about trying to get rid of all the cars" that use the downtown."

BenSpurr11:36am via Twitter Web Client
Mammoliti ends by accusing councillors of trying to keep people from the suburbs out of downtown by building bike lanes.
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Mammoliti is being Mammoliti, as usual. Councillor Holyday on the other hand is just pathetic.
 
salsa said:
Mammoliti is being Mammoliti, as usual. Councillor Holyday on the other hand is just pathetic.
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The apple clearly doesn't fall far from the tree. His dad was an awful councillor as well, and as mayor of Etobicoke, did absolutely nothing positive for it.
 
At some point, I'll just start to ignore the dribble emanating from andrewpmk, but just in case he happens to be swaying any onlookers:

> Again, bikes aren't going anywhere in this city. Usage has consistently increased, is projected to continue to do so, so the only rational public policy to pursue is one that enhances the safety of a mode of transportation that this city has long neglected where it makes sense to do so.
> It's simply untrue that the bike lobby has been successful, overall, at Council, as is very clearly evidenced by the massive dearth of protected cycle infrastructure in the city.
> Prevalence of bike sharing in the city is increasing. There's simply no reasonable grounds on which to doubt the veracity of that statement. Which makes it even more important to continue to expand the network of safe cycle infrastructure.
> And, most tellingly, regarding "Also I hardly ever see anyone using the bike-sharing system downtown, and I hardly ever see anyone using the bike racks on TTC buses", the shocking lack of awareness of the degree to which that sentence reveals a complete lack of understanding of the proper way to plan a city or, for that matter, anything in life, probably more neatly undermines the arguments put forth better than could any retort of my own.

Stop channeling your inner Mammoliti; it makes you seem deeply unwise.
 
WislaHD said:
Holyday is a former engineer who probably subscribes to the view that roads are designed to maximize capacity for cars.
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An engineer, as much if not more so than anyone, should understand that the purpose of transportation networks should be to maximize the number of people who can travel from one place to another in the most efficient manner, not to figure out ways to continue the cars-only mentality that has so poisoned the transportation debate at City Hall.

Bikes and public transit are both far more efficient modes of transport in terms of number of people moved per unit of area than autos. That is incontrovertible.
 
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